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BSM Celebrates Its Two Year Anniversary



The past month has been chaotic, with two and a half weeks of travel causing me to feel out of sync. I’ve attended the Podcast Movement Conference and NAB Radio Show, visited FOX Sports Radio, FS1 and Jim Rome’s studios, enjoyed a few drinks and conversations with top notch program directors, and have earned the eyes and ears of more than 10 CEO’s and/or corporate executives, strengthening my relationships and expanding my knowledge of various companies and situations. That doesn’t include engaging with numerous folks by phone, email and social media.

If you told me I’d be in these situations two years ago when I launched BSM, I would have questioned why I didn’t make the move sooner. The pace has been fast, the challenges different, and it’s kept me so focused and bullish on our business that I had to be reminded by my fiancé of my company’s two year anniversary this past Friday.

As crazy as that sounds, it’s a great problem to have. I entered this space determined to build something special, and to see it gain traction and generate respect and interest throughout the industry is something I take great pride in and am very grateful for.

Having spent more than two decades in the radio business, I’ve seen a lot of folks over the years brand themselves as consultants whenever they were in between jobs. It was a way for people to stay relevant and tell decision makers “I’m not unemployed, but if you have a job for me I’ll gladly consider giving this up.” They offered feedback to people who wanted to improve on the air but discovered that relying on industry members for business was extremely difficult.

Given my background as a programmer, I understood why many assumed this would be a stop-gap move for me. It was expected that I’d show up in a building in New York or relocate as I had done multiple times during my career, but truth be told, I went into this space fully committed. I had no desire to reclaim my PD stripes. I saw how the radio industry was changing and felt the need for outside consultation would increase if I was able to whether the storm of starting and growing a business. If operators needed to take a wait and see approach before working with me to make sure it was an area I was committed to, I had no problem being patient and letting my work and persistence do the talking.

When I started working in radio 22 years ago, I was cautioned by my father that it was competitive and paid very little. I knew that I’d have to scratch, claw and work my tail off to make noise and create opportunities. My first full time opportunity paid $16,000 dollars per year, and with a family of four to support at the time, I questioned if I was doing the right thing. But radio was in my blood and fueled my desire to wake up each morning and perform, and I couldn’t turn it off.

I actually took a 6-month departure early in my career to enter the ‘real world’ and work for AT&T Wireless. When I landed the job I instantly doubled my income which felt great, but I soon discovered that I couldn’t work a job that I wasn’t emotionally and passionately invested in. I’d go to the office, writing down phone numbers of athletes, celebrities and media personalities, hoping to book them for future shows, only to be reminded by one of my cubicle compadres “Jason, you don’t have a radio show and you aren’t in that business anymore.”

And that’s when I realized, I am not going to be confined to a cubicle, answering phones and questioning why I didn’t chase my dream. Money makes life easier to live but what you do professionally occupies so much of your time in life and I wasn’t going to waste mine.

You can imagine how well it went over when three weeks before Christmas when I walked in the door and told my family I quit AT&T, was going to return to radio, and would not rest until I made it. There were short-term financial challenges to overcome but I was and remain a firm believer that you don’t make decisions solely on money. In anything you do, there has to be a bigger purpose and a sense of excitement attached to your involvement, otherwise you become a slave to the paycheck.

Not to take anything away from anyone who makes a living answering phones or working a M-F 9a-5p job. I’ve wished at times I was wired differently and could accept a simpler lifestyle. But for me, the radio light bulb was always on, and no matter how hard I tried to turn it off, I just couldn’t. As the famous line in The Godfather Part 3 goes, “just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in.”

In writing this column, I wanted to share how I think and operate because the way I manage BSM is no different than how I’ve managed my career. This company isn’t a placeholder. It’s my new way of life. I’ve invested in knowledge and fought to build a career, earn respect, and deliver results for my employers, and I use that same approach today to guide BSM.

One of the real perks of making this move has been that it’s helped me learn so much more during the past 24 months. Being active with multiple companies in different cities keeps me on my toes, and every week and challenge is unique. One week I might be sitting in front of three ultra-successful big market personalities discussing the progress of their show, the next week I might be doing a social media evaluation for another client. The following week I could be working with a smaller station to help a young man develop as a host, play by play voice and brand leader, and the next I’m analyzing ratings trends, developing seasonal strategies, evaluating imaging and helping recruit talent.

I’m extremely fortunate to have great support from my fiancé, son and parents, and valuable relationships with exceptional companies/clients and thousands of industry professionals. Without each of them placing their faith in me this business would be nothing more than a pipe dream.

During the past two years I’ve grown my clients from two to eight, I’ve gone from having no budget to attend conferences to being able to attend three to four per year, and I’ve increased my in-market training projects from two to six. I’m extremely proud of that progress and it lets me know that I’m on the right path.

I’ve also built up the website as a source of information and original content. BSM has amassed more than two million pageviews and become a destination for other industry professionals to write and earn a few dollars for contributing. That doesn’t include creating 22 episodes of the BSM Podcast, and generating an additional 56,000 listening sessions.

And I’m not even close to where I want to be. This is only the beginning.

One thing I hear often from industry leaders is how important it is to be bold, take risks, invest in people who can help improve products, and not be afraid to seek others outside of the organization to keep a brand honest. In fact, these messages were repeated often during the past three weeks at the NAB Radio Show and Podcast Movement Conference. Executives stressed how rapidly the world is changing, how cluttered and competitive the content and revenue spaces are, and why operating in status quo mode is a failed strategy. I agree with every single one of those assessments, and as an independent resource who knows the sports space as well as anyone in it, I’m looking forward to holding our industry’s leaders accountable to their words.

2018 is going to be a big year for radio with a ton of change happening. I’m sure we’ll say the same thing when 2019 and 2020 roll around. Although we can’t predict what the future entails, we can prepare for it by having the right people in our corner (hint, hint).

I take great pride in being an advocate for the sports radio format. I don’t believe there’s any individual or platform championing this format’s cause and impact more than I, and I do it to help our companies and sports radio brands gain the recognition, respect and revenue they deserve, and to showcase the people who make it possible. There are so many great stories to tell about our format but sometimes we have tunnel vision and forget to share our ideas and information. The world isn’t going to know what you’re doing if you don’t let others know about it, so for all of my programming friends, hosts, producers, sellers and corporate leaders, continue sharing the information, no matter how big or small you may think it is, and I’ll keep fighting to help elevate the conversation about our format.

The second thing I’m working to evolve is the perception of consultants. Maybe in the past it was enough to tell market managers and programmers, “do this, do that, lose this person, add this one” but in 2017 that isn’t enough. Today, I evaluate content, ratings, branding, imaging, develop relationships with people for potential short-term and long-term opportunities, research audience interests, study social media trends and make strategic recommendations, develop seasonal strategies, share big picture ideas and revenue generating events, supply information to operators for weekly appointments, write columns and news, host a podcast, help create new digital ideas, vote on awards, and appear on sports radio shows as a guest sports media analyst. Plus in 2018 I’ll be hosting the very first BSM Sports Radio Programming Summit.

Having been a PD before, I made decisions and stood by them, win or lose, but I never made them without doing research, gathering opinions and opening my mind to other possibilities. Every great leader should want to surround themselves with smart experienced people. Especially those who can provide them with additional ideas and information, and an honest perspective that they might need to hear during critical times.

I think we’d all agree that the audio space is booming, and the appetite for sports content is growing by the day. I’m a huge believer that we are well positioned for greater success, and although our industry faces challenges, there’s never been a better time to be involved in it.

As I reflect on the first two years of BSM I’m extremely thankful and excited about where we are. I can’t thank those I’ve been lucky enough to work with for their trust and business, and I look forward to expanding my relationships with other great broadcasters in the near future. Being active is great, but changing the game and making a lasting impression is what fuels me each morning. It’s time now to get back to work and begin making year three our best one yet. Thanks for your consistent support of BSM!

Barrett Blogs

Would Local Radio Benefit From Hosting An Annual Upfront?



How many times have you heard this sentence uttered at conferences or in one of the trades; radio has to do a better job of telling its story. Sounds reasonable enough right? After all, your brands and companies stand a better chance of being more consumed and invested in the more that others know about them.

But what specifically about your brand’s story matters to those listening or spending money on it? Which outlets are you supposed to share that news with to grow your listenership and advertising? And who is telling the story? Is it someone who works for your company and has a motive to advance a professional agenda, or someone who’s independent and may point out a few holes in your strategy, execution, and results?

As professionals working in the media business, we’re supposed to be experts in the field of communications. But are we? We’re good at relaying news when it makes us look good or highlights a competitor coming up short. How do we respond though when the story isn’t told the we want it to? Better yet, how many times do sports/news talk brands relay information that isn’t tied to quarterly ratings, revenue or a new contract being signed? We like to celebrate the numbers that matter to us and our teams, but we don’t spend much time thinking about if those numbers matter to the right groups – the audience and the advertisers.

Having covered the sports and news media business for the past seven years, and published nearly eighteen thousand pieces of content, you’d be stunned if you saw how many nuggets of information get sent to us from industry folks looking for publicity vs. having to chase people down for details or read things on social media or listen to or watch shows to promote relevant material. Spoiler alert, most of what we produce comes from digging. There are a handful of outlets and PR folks who are great, and five or six PD’s who do an excellent job consistently promoting news or cool things associated with their brands and people. Some talent are good too at sharing content or tips that our website may have an interest in.

Whether I give the green light to publish the material or not, I appreciate that folks look for ways to keep their brands and shows on everyone’s radar. Brand leaders and marketing directors should be battling daily in my opinion for recognition anywhere and everywhere it’s available. If nobody is talking about your brand then you have to give them a reason to.

I’m writing this column today because I just spent a day in New York City at the Disney Upfront, which was attended by a few thousand advertising professionals. Though I’d have preferred a greater focus on ESPN than what was offered, I understand that a company the size of Disney with so many rich content offerings is going to have to condense things or they’d literally need a full week of Upfronts to cover it all. They’re also trying to reach buyers and advertising professionals who have interests in more than just sports.

What stood out to me while I was in attendance was how much detail went into putting on a show to inform, entertain, and engage advertising professionals. Disney understands the value of telling its story to the right crowd, and they rolled out the heavy hitters for it. There was a strong mix of stars, executives, promotion of upcoming shows, breaking news about network deals, access to the people responsible for bringing advertising to life, and of course, free drinks. It was easy for everyone in the room to gain an understanding of the company’s culture, vision, success, and plans to capture more market share.

As I sat in my seat, I wondered ‘why doesn’t radio do this on a local level‘? I’m not talking about entertaining clients in a suite, having a business dinner for a small group of clients or inviting business owners and agency reps to the office for a rollout of forthcoming plans. I’m talking about creating an annual event that showcases the power of a cluster, the stars who are connected to the company’s various brands, unveiling new shows, promotions and deals, and using the event as a driver to attract more business.

Too often I see our industry rely on things that have worked in the past. We assume that if it worked before there’s no need to reinvent the wheel for the client. Sometimes that’s even true. Maybe the advertiser likes to keep things simple and communicate by phone, email or in-person lunch meetings. Maybe a creative powerpoint presentation is all you need to get them to say yes. If it’s working and you feel that’s the best way forward to close business, continue with that approach. There’s more than one way to reach the finish line.

But I believe that most people like being exposed to fresh ideas, and given a peak behind the curtain. The word ‘new’ excites people. Why do you think Apple introduces a new iPhone each year or two. We lose sight sometimes of how important our brands and people are to those not inside the walls of our offices. We forget that whether a client spends ten thousand or ten million dollars per year with our company, they still like to be entertained. When you allow business people to feel the excitement associated with your brand’s upcoming events, see the presentations on a screen, and hear from and interact with the stars involved in it, you make them feel more special. I think you stand a better chance of closing deals and building stronger relationships that way.

Given that many local clusters have relationships with hotels, theaters, teams, restaurants, etc. there’s no reason you can’t find a central location, and put together an advertiser appreciation day that makes partners feel valued. You don’t have to rent out Pier 36 like Disney or secure the field at a baseball stadium to make a strong impression. We show listeners they’re valued regularly by giving away tickets, cash, fan appreciation parties, etc. and guess what, it works! Yes there are expenses involved putting on events, and no manager wants to hear about spending money without feeling confident they’ll generate a return on investment. That said, taking calculated risks is essential to growing a business. Every day that goes by where you operate with a ‘relying on the past’ mindset, and refuse to invest in growth opportunities, is one that leaves open the door for others to make sure your future is less promising.

There are likely a few examples of groups doing a smaller scaled version of what I’m suggesting. If you’re doing this already, I’d love to hear about it. Hit me up through email at By and large though, I don’t see a lot of must-see, must-discuss events like this created that lead to a surplus of press, increased relationships, and most importantly, increased sales. Yet it can be done. Judging from some of the feedback I received yesterday talking to people in the room, it makes an impression, and it matters.

I don’t claim to know how many ad agency executives and buyers returned to the office from the Disney Upfront and reached out to sign new advertising deals with the company. What I am confident in is that Disney wouldn’t invest resources in creating this event nor would other national groups like NBC, FOX, CBS, WarnerMedia, etc. if they didn’t feel it was beneficial to their business. Rather than relying on ratings and revenue stories that serve our own interests, maybe we’d help ourselves more by allowing our partners and potential clients to experience what makes our brands special. It works with our listeners, and can work with advertisers too.

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Barrett Blogs

Takeaways From The NAB Show and Six Days in Las Vegas

“I’m certainly not afraid to be critical but my enthusiasm for the NAB Show was elevated this year.”



Six days on the road can sometimes be exhausting. Six days in Las Vegas, and it’s guaranteed. That was my world last week, as I along with more than fifty thousand people headed to sin city to take in the 2022 NAB Show.

The event didn’t draw as many as it had in the past, but after two years of inactivity due to the pandemic, it was good to be back. Judging from some of the vendors I talked to, the sessions I attended, and the feedback I received from folks I met with, though far from perfect, it was a solid return for an important event. Seeing people interact, celebrate others, and talk about ways to improve the business was a positive reminder of the world being closer to the normal of 2019 than the normal of 2020-2021. The only negative from the week, the consistent failure of Uber to appear in the right place at the right time. But that had zero to do with the NAB.

It feels like whenever I attend industry conferences, there are two different type of reviews that follow. Some writers attend the show and see the glass half full. Others see the glass half empty. I’m certainly not afraid to be critical but my enthusiasm was elevated this year. Maybe it was because BSM was a media partner or maybe it was due to the show not happening for years and just being happy to be among friends, peers, and clients and operate like normal. Either way, my glass was definitely half full.

For those who see events this way, it’s likely they’ll remember the numerous opportunities they had to create and reestablish relationships. They’ll also recall the access to different speakers, sessions, products, and the excellent research shared with those in attendance. The great work done by the BFOA to recognize industry difference makers during their Wednesday breakfast was another positive experience, as was the Sunday night industry gathering at The Mayfair Supper Club.

Included in the conference were sessions with a number of industry leaders. Radio CEO’s took the stage to point out the industry’s wins and growth, credit their employees, and call out audio competitors, big tech, and advertisers for not spending more with the industry. When David Field, Bob Pittman, Ginny Morris and Caroline Beasley speak, people listen. Though their companies operate differently, hearing them share their views on the state of the business is important. I always learn something new when they address the room.

But though a lot of ground gets covered during these interviews, there are a few issues that don’t get talked about enough. For instance, ineffective measurement remains a big problem for the radio business. Things like this shouldn’t happen, but they do. NBC and WarnerMedia took bold steps to address problems with TV measurement. Does radio have the courage to take a similar risk? That’s an area I’d like to see addressed more by higher ups.

I can’t help but wonder how much money we lose from this issue. Companies spend millions for a ratings service that delivers subpar results, and the accountability that follows is often maddening. Given the data we have access to digitally, it’s stunning that radio’s report card for over the air listening is determined by outdated technology. And if we’re going to tell folks that wearables are the missing ingredient for addressing this problem, don’t be shocked if the press that follows is largely negative. The industry and its advertising partners deserve better. So too do the reps at Nielsen who have to absorb the hits, and make the most of a tough situation.

Speaking of advertising, this is another one of those critical areas that deserves another point of view. Case in point, I talked to a few ad agency professionals at the show. Similar to what I’ve heard before, they’re tired of hearing radio leaders blame them for the industry’s present position. This has been a hot button topic with executives for years. I often wonder, do we help or hurt ourselves by publicly calling out advertisers and ad agencies? How would you feel if you ran an agency which spent millions on the industry and were told ‘you don’t do enough’? I’m a champion of radio/audio, and am bullish on spoken word’s ability to deliver results for clients, but having attended these shows for nearly seven years, it might be time for a new approach and message. Or maybe it’s time to put one of our CEO’s with one of theirs and have a bigger discussion. Just a thought.

Of the sessions that I attended, I thought Erica Farber’s ‘What Business Are You In?’ was excellent. I especially liked Taja Graham’s presentation on ‘Sharing Your Truth’. I also appreciated Eric Bischoff’s tips on ways to monetize podcasts, and am curious to see how Amazon’s AMP develops moving forward. My favorite session at the show though was “A GPS Session For Your Station’s Car Radio Strategy” led by Fred Jacobs. The insight shared by Joe D’Angelo of Xperi and Steve Newberry & Suzy Schultz of Quu was outstanding. Keeping the car companies on our side is vital to our survival, and how we position ourselves on the dashboard can’t be ignored. Other tech companies and audio operators take it seriously. We must too.

Sessions aside, it was great to check out the VSiN and Blue Wire studios, connect with a bunch of CEO’s, GM’s and Market Manager’s, and visit with Kevin Jones, Joe Fortenbaugh, Jeremiah Crowe, Jon Goulet, Bill Adee, Q Myers, Mike Golic Jr. and Stormy Buonantony. The NFL’s setup for the Draft, and the light show presented at the Bellagio was without a doubt spectacular, plus Stephanie had a chance to say hello to Raiders owner Mark Davis who was inside the back room of a Westgate restaurant where we were having a business lunch meeting. The personal tour we received at the Wynn showed off some of the best suites I’ve seen in Las Vegas, and I was finally able to witness Circa’s Stadium Swim in person, and meet owner Derek Stevens (heck of a suit game). What an outstanding hotel and casino.

Altogether, it was a productive trip. As someone who knows all about building and executing a conference, I appreciate the work that goes into pulling it off. This event is massive, and I have no idea how the NAB makes it happen so flawlessly. This was the first time my head of sales, Stephanie Eads, got to attend the show. She loved it. Our only negative, going back and forth between convention halls can get exhausting. Wisely, Stephanie and Guaranty Media CEO Flynn Foster took advantage of the underground Tesla ride to move from the North hall to the West hall. I wasn’t as bright. If that’s the worst part of the experience though, that’s pretty solid. I look forward to returning in 2023, and attending the NAB’s NYC show this fall.


You’ve likely seen posts from BSM/BNM on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn promoting a number of open positions. I’m adding crew to help us pump out more content, and that means we need more editors, news writers, features reporter’s and columnists. If you’re currently involved or previously worked in the industry and love to write about it, send a resume and few writing samples by email to

With that said, I’m excited to announce the addition of Ryan Brown as a weekly columnist for BSM. Ryan is part of ‘The Next Round’ in Birmingham, Alabama, which previously broadcast on WJOX as JOX Roundtable. The show left the terrestrial world in June 2021 to operate as its own entity. Ryan’s knowledge and opinions should provide a boost to the site, and I’m looking forward to featuring his columns every Tuesday. Keep an eye out for it tomorrow, and if you want to check out the guest piece he previously wrote for us, click here.

Demetri Ravanos and I have talked to a lot of people over the past month. More additions will be revealed soon. As always, thanks for the continued support of BSM and BNM.

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Barrett Blogs

Six New Contributors Join Barrett Media

“These latest additions will make our product better. Now the challenge is finding others to help us continue growing.”



Building a brand starts with a vision. Once that vision is defined, you identify the people who fit what you’re creating, lay out the game plan, and turn them loose to execute. If the product you’re creating is original, fills a gap in the marketplace, and the work turned in by your team is consistently excellent and promoted in the right locations, more times than not you’ll build an audience.

As you grow, the focus turns to studying what your audience wants, needs, and expects from your brand. Certain things you expect to be big turn out small, and the things you saw limited upside in create opportunities you never saw coming. It’s critical to be open minded and ready to pivot while also examining where and when people consume your product, which pieces of content do and don’t matter, and then use that information to direct your team to give folks more of what they value and less of what they don’t. Team members should want that feedback too. It tells them what is and isn’t worth spending their time on.

As I lay all of that out it may sound like I’m talking about a radio station or television operation. These are the things programmers do frequently to make sure the talent, shows, and brand is satisfying the expectations of an audience. But what I’m actually referring to is the brand you’ve made a choice to click on to read this column, Barrett Media.

I’ve mentioned many times on this website how I started this operation by myself, and didn’t expect to have a team of writers involved in it. I was focused on consulting sports stations, sharing my programming views on this website, and as I cranked out content consistently, I discovered others loved the business like I did and had a desire to share their insights too. Rather than sticking to my original plan, I pivoted and increased our content offerings. In return, the audience grew, clients grew, and it’s led this brand to grow beyond my expectations. Now we cover sports AND news media, we run an annual conference, feature a membership program, create podcasts, deliver a daily 8@8 and three times per week BNM Rundown newsletter, and work with various brands and companies across the broadcasting industry. I’m extremely fortunate to be in this position and don’t take it for granted.

But with growth comes change. We’ve been blessed to have a lot of talented people contribute to this site over the years, and as they produce quality work, and others across the industry recognize it, they earn interest for their services. That then leads to some having to sign off for bigger opportunities. I see that as a great positive for the brand. Would it be nice to have more consistency and keep a crew together for years? Of course. I know it’d make Demetri’s life a lot easier. If we’re losing people for the right reasons though, and they’re landing opportunities that help them advance their careers, I’m going to be happy for their success, and trust that we’ll find others to keep us moving forward. The success of our team helps make what we do more attractive to others because it shows that if you do good consistent work here, you can put yourself in a position to attract attention.

Over the past two months, I have challenged Demetri Ravanos to invest more time talking to people about writing for us. Expanding our Barrett News Media roster is a priority. So too is adding quality people to help us improve Barrett Sports Media. BSM has had just under seven years to earn trust with readers. BNM has had less than two. We’ve put out ads on our website and newsletters, social posts, an ad on Indeed, and we’ve reached out directly to people who we’ve felt may be able to add something interesting to our brand. Most of my time is spent listening to stations and talking with clients, but my eyes are always roaming looking for content, and my mind is always thinking about what we can create next to make an impact.

I don’t judge our brand’s success based on clicks, shares, breaking news before other outlets or showing up in the top three listings on Google. I care more effort accuracy, timeliness, passion, consistency, storytelling, insight, and being fair and non-agenda driven. We’ve found our niche being able to tell stories about broadcasting professionals, relaying news, and offering expert knowledge to serve those involved in the broadcasting industry. If we continue to excel doing those things consistently, I’m confident our audience will reward us by reading and sharing more of our content. It’s why we never stop recruiting to keep things fresh.

Having said that, I am excited today to reveal six new additions to the Barrett Media staff. Peter Schwartz is a name and voice many in New York sports radio circles are familiar with. Peter has spent three decades working with various outlets and I’m thrilled to have him writing weekly feature stories for us. Brady Farkas is a talented host and former programmer who now works for WDEV in Burlington, VT. Karl Schoening is a play by play broadcaster who has worked in San Antonio sports radio and has had the added benefit of learning the industry from his talented father Bill who calls Spurs games. Each of them will produce bi-weekly feature stories for the brand. Jason Ence is in Louisville and has written about sports betting for Twin Spires while also working for ESPN 680. He’ll be writing sports betting content for us on a weekly basis. Jasper Jones will help us by adding news stories on Friday’s. He’s presently in Philadelphia learning the business working for Audacy. Last but not least, veteran author, Brewers writer, and former radio professional Jim Cryns comes on board to help us with features on news media professionals.

These six additions make us stronger, and I’m excited to have them join the team to help us add more quality content to the website. That said, we’re not done yet. Demetri and I are still talking with others and I expect to make a few more additions in the weeks ahead. As I said earlier, we want to improve the news media side of our operation and continue adding people to help us make a bigger dent in the sports media space. Broadcast companies invest in us to help them, and I believe it’s important to invest back.

If you’ve programmed, hosted a top rated show, worked in measurement, led a cluster as a GM, sold advertising, represented talent or have worked in digital and feel you have knowledge to share, reach out. I can’t promise we’ll have room but we’re always willing to listen. I’m not worried about whether or not you’ve written for professional publications. Passion, experience and unique insights matter much more than a resume or journalism degree.

I appreciate everyone who takes time to read our content, like and share it on social, and all involved with this brand who help bring it to life each day. The latest additions of Schwartz, Farkas, Schoening, Ence, Jones and Cryns will make our product better. Now the challenge is finding others to help us continue growing.

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