It’s been nearly six months since comedian, MMA commentator, and podcasting star Joe Rogan announced his famed deal with Spotify (reportedly worth $100 million) to move his hugely popular show “The Joe Rogan Experience” to the audio streaming platform. The message to his gigantic audience was one of reassurance:
“It will be the exact same show,” said Rogan in a video posted on Spotify’s website.
“The only difference will be it will now be available on the largest audio platform in the world. Nothing else will change.”
So far, that statement holds true — and, not true. Because the deal itself signifies huge changes. And despite Rogan’s reassuring words, his move to Spotify hasn’t been 100 percent smooth sailing.
“Podcasting is all free-balling. It’s the opposite of polished. And because of that, it resonates.”
New York Times
Less than a week after the Spotify mega deal was announced, former New York Times opinion editor and columnist Bari Weiss called up Rogan for a column published on May 25.
The above attributed quote boils down Rogan’s staggering audience popularity to three sentences.
Rogan has said his show garners an estimated 190 million downloads a month. His YouTube channel has 9.75 million subscribers. Compare that to monthly audience of 3.97 million primetime viewers in June 2020 at Fox News, making it the most watched network in the United States the largest audience, according to the website Statista.
Rogan’s appeal is undeniable.
You may agree, disagree, laugh along with or be outraged and offended by his guest list, which ranges from the most erudite academics such as Harvard University sociologist Nicolas Christakis to polemicists Alex Jones and Stefan Molyneux all the way to raunchy and raw comedians like Rogan pal Joey Diaz and the publicly disgraced comic icon Roseanne Barr. But the sheer diversity of ideas they represent dwarfs the comparably narrow content offered up by most other media outlets.
A typical Rogan podcast lasts well over an hour and can go as long as three. His audience seems to be screaming at the polarized media diet found on cable tv, traditional television and networks, and the Twitter/Youtube clip world that what most consumers want is much closer to the long-form, meandering, and sometimes factually questionable conversations with the not-so-usual suspects.
But the Rogan formula also sets ups an inherent tension with his distributor Spotify. Not long after its bold move to acquire his content, Rogan issued a rare public apology for repeating a debunked conspiracy theory about left-wing activist setting fires in Portland, Oregon, during a recent interview with British conservative political commentator author Douglas Murray..
There are other problems: several of Rogan’s most controversial shows have not – as was publicly promoted – been uploaded to Spotify’s streaming platform. Among them, far-right conservative commentator and Sandy Hook conspiracist Alex Jones, which as of this writing remains absent from Rogan’s catalog of nearly 1,550 shows.
On this issue, Rogan said during his announcement of the initial Spotify deal that clips of his show will continue to be available on YouTube (where his show was originally broadcast) but that “full versions of the show will only be on Spotify after the end of the year.”
There are also reported rumblings by Spotify staff, who are objecting to Rogan’s “freewheeling” content and calling on management for the right to edit his material.
According to a story published in Motherboard, some of the outcry was directed at another Rogan interview with Abigail Shrier, author of the book Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters. Motherboard reports Spotify management has held a series of meetings with aggrieved staffers and quotes Spotify CEO Daniel Ek as saying, “Joe Rogan and the episode in question have been reviewed extensively. The fact that we aren’t changing our position doesn’t mean we aren’t listening. It just means we made a different judgment call.”
Spotify, owned by Google, is clearly betting that Rogan’s reach can overcome its controversies. Its acquisition was designed to make the streaming platform a worldwide juggernaut in the podcast industry, according to industry insiders.
MIDiA Research managing director Mark Mulligan told Rolling Stone shortly after the Rogan acquisition was announced that it may well turn Spotify into “the single biggest force in audio on the planet the same way Facebook became the single biggest force in social.”
Earlier this month, Rogan himself weighed in on the reported staff rumblings over his content during an interview with comedian Tom Dillion on October 1st, saying that Spotify is yet to reach out to him, adding that “nothing at all” has been said or done about the alleged complaints by staffers.
For the record, Spotify declined my requests for comment.
So it appears the initial skirmishes have been dealt with – for now.
That said, if Spotify is banking on the explosive growth of podcast audiences and even plans to turn its original podcasts into future television and movie deals in a deal announced last month with Chernin Entertainment, then its future relationship with the freewheeling Rogan will almost certainly be rocky.
Content Culture – Cumulus, Connoisseur, and SiriusXM
“I’m not the only person noticing what the satellite broadcaster is up to these days.”
In last week’s column, we considered if the consortium led by Jeff Warshaw (CEO of Connoisseur Media) to acquire Cumulus Media would be an improvement over the current management. We used the single metric of employee (past and present) reviews from the website Glassdoor to arrive at this decision.
The 32 people rating Connoisseur gave it an average score of 2.9 (out of five) compared with Cumulus, which averaged a 3.2 with over 800 reviews. As I wrote last week:
“These reviews have to be taken with a grain of salt as former employees may have an ax to grind, but this caveat holds equally true for all employers.”
Based solely on this one admittedly narrow and unscientific measurement, I wrote:
[The] “Glassdoor reviews suggest that a new Cumulus led by Warshaw wouldn’t be an improvement over the current management. “
Glassdoor reviews aren’t necessarily a fair barometer of Connoisseur or Cumulus Media management. Therefore, I invited people who work for or have worked for either company to contact me with comments.
Several people familiar with Connoisseur did reach out. They felt the company had the best intentions, but cuts inevitably came when the station or cluster didn’t make budget. So, no different than the other major groups. These employees were less afraid of Connoisseur’s management than they were of getting sold, which did happen in a couple of instances.
Among the other major radio broadcast groups reviewed on Glassdoor:
iHeart also scores a 3.2 (over 2,200 reviews).
Audacy receives a 3.5, based on 23 reviews. Entercom had 691 reviews and rates a 3.1.
SiriusXM appears to have the highest current score at 3.6.
It begs the question: What makes SiriusXM a better experience for the people who work there? Where do we look to find an answer to that question?
If you’ve never listened to a corporate earnings call, you should. Listening can offer insight into the soul of an enterprise.
Cumulus Media’s first-quarter 2022 earnings call was on May 4th. The Liberty SiriusXM Group’s Q1-22 earnings phone conference was two days later (May 6th).
I did some analysis of the transcripts of each call. If these calls don’t demonstrate the companies’ values, they suggest what they are thinking about these days.
The transcription of the Cumulus Media earnings call clocks in at just over 4,000 words. Over about 32 minutes, President and CEO Mary Berner; and CFO Frank Lopez-Balboa mentioned “radio” three times. Talking about radio took two percent (2%) of the time.
Ms. Berner and Mr. Lopez-Balboa spoke about content four times. These exchanges occupied four percent (4%, 164 words) of the call. They referred to audience levels once, less than one percent (1%) of the total.
Since the Warshaw-led buyout offer of Cumulus started my curiosity on this topic, it’s worth noting that Berner made one reference to it. She called it an “unsolicited, nonbinding and highly conditional indication of interest…” She stated the offer “significantly undervalues the company and is not in the best interest of its shareholders.” Berner also announced a $50 million stock buyback program. She dispensed with the matter using 127 words, three percent (3%) of the call.
The Liberty SiriusXM Group earnings call was longer. At 47-plus minutes, the transcript is over 7,400 words. There were four participants from SiriusXM, including:
- Hooper Stevens – Senior Vice President, Investor Relations and Finance
- Jennifer Witz – Chief Executive Officer
- Sean Sullivan – Chief Financial Officer
- Scott Greenstein – President and Chief Content Officer
Including its “President and Chief Content Officer” forbodes what transpired next.
Leadership brings up audience levels eight times. Discussing audience size takes two percent (2%) of the total call. They discussed content 19 times throughout the call. They use over 1.100 words, 15% of the time describing content. This earnings call suggests the importance SiriusXM leadership places on content.
I’m not the only person noticing what the satellite broadcaster is up to these days. Recently, Jacobs Media presented its TechSurvey 2022. During the webcast, Fred Jacobs said:
“The more I look at the data, the more I keep coming back to SiriusXM as the bigger threat…”
–Fred Jacobs, From TechSurvey 2022 Presentation
Although he was directing that quote more specifically at music stations, in the next breath, Fred adds:
“The only formats that are well above average (to have a SiriusXM subscription – either free or paid) are Sports and News/Talk Format Fans.”
–Fred Jacobs, From TechSurvey 2022 Presentation
There is much more data in Jacobs’ TechSurvey that illustrates why the need to create compelling, entertaining, and original content is more important now than ever.
We can’t know for certain if there is a correlation between the amount of discussion about content during the Liberty SiriusXM Group earnings conference call and the higher scores it receives on Glassdoor. However, it is a good bet that content is driving the progress the satellite broadcaster receives in Jacobs’ TechSurvey and its own metrics. The people running broadcast companies should take notice and perhaps the hint.
Jesse Kelly Was at the Right Place at the Right Time
Kelly graduated high school in 1999. Life was fresh, possibilities abounded, and Kelly didn’t seem to give much thought to the future.
Some people are born to greatness; others have a horseshoe–you know where. He may not be the biggest name in radio yet, but he’s in the running for tallest.
“I’m 6’8”,” Jesse Kelly said. “Everybody else in this business is short.”
Kelly graduated high school in 1999. Life was fresh, possibilities abounded, and Kelly didn’t seem to give much thought to the future.
“I remember we had our senior song,” Kelly said. “It seemed to be the same song for every graduating class; Time of Your Life, by Green Day. A great song, but man, like anything else, it can get old.”
Kelly said he’s all about classic rock. Aerosmith and classical music are on his playlist as well.
“I wasn’t allowed to go to the senior prom,” Kelly confessed. “I chose not to attend some of my classes. (Most of his classes.) I had more of an interest in camping, pretty girls, and great weather.” Kelly said he actually missed two-thirds of his classes in high school, ditching, and whatnot.
What in the world was the 16-year-old- Jesse Kelly thinking about?
“I was just into Mountain Dew, basketball, and video games,” he said. “I lived in Montana. There wasn’t much else to do. We were surrounded by mountains. Every weekend we’d grab sleeping bags, shotguns because there were a lot of wild animals.”
All the above, and chasing girls, was a full-time job for Kelly. Who had time for silly old school?
“I don’t mean to sound like an old man,” Kelly began, “but that’s all we did. We’d never heard about drugs outside of pot, and kids today are into fentanyl and what have you. An amazing difference from when I was a kid.”
With his height, you would have assumed he would have been the star basketball player–and he could have been.
“I played until my sophomore year in high school,” Kelly said. “The coach had been licking his chops, anticipating my arrival on his team. I chose not to do it after sophomore year. My dad was mad; the coach was furious.”
The expectations were clear as Kelly’s father played well enough to play basketball on a scholarship.
“I guess I was a bit rebellious,” Kelly said.
If he lived in Indiana, shunning basketball would have been akin to sacrilege. In Montana, not so much of a big deal.
Moving to Montana was a bit of a culture shock for a guy whose family had deep tentacles in the rust belt in Ohio.
“My father and cousins were all into the Cincinnati Bengals, Cleveland Browns, and mostly the Pittsburgh Steelers,” Kelly said. “I wanted to follow something different, so I picked the New York Giants. In baseball, it was the White Sox. I wanted to be like The Big Hurt (Frank Thomas.).”
Kelly doesn’t put stock in the ‘traditional trap’ set for kids in America. He doesn’t believe a kid has to go to college right away, if ever. In fact, he told his sons they’re not allowed to go to college until they ‘found themselves.’
“My 11-year-old son is my clone,” Kelly said. “He’s starting to see what dad does for a living and thinks it’s cool. He said he wants to be on the radio too. I told him I’d help him as much as I could, but first, he had to live life, gain some life experience.”
His elder son is 13 years old and has a mind Kelly said must have come from somewhere else. “He’s a different cat,” Kelly said. “His mind works differently. He can take a bucket of random Legos, dump them on the floor, and he’ll build a spaceship. I’m not talking about the kind of deal where a parent pats their son on the head for support, saying, ‘Yeah, that looks a little like a spaceship.’ My son actually spends 18 hours on the project and makes a spaceship, down to the minute details; something NASA would be proud of.”
For a guy that hated school, you would have thought books would be like Kryptonite. Surprisingly, Kelly reads a lot. “I’m an obsessive reader. I’d read Louis L’Amour, the frontier guy. I moved on to military books, loved anything to do with the Marines.” He said those books are partially why he ended up joining the Marines.
So, what was the impetus for becoming a Marine?
“I was a piece of crap,” the candid Kelly said. “I barely graduated high school. My first semester at Montana State, I ‘earned’ a 0.0-grade point average.” That might even qualify for valedictorian at Montana State. They even let him stay for a second semester before he bailed.
I asked Kelly exactly what one would have to do to earn a 0.0 GPA.
“Remarkably little,” he deadpanned. “Sleeping-in helps. Chasing women. Attending half of your finals.”
Kelly was a kid that watched John Wayne films. He was so inspired by the fictitious-Marine, that he woke up one morning, went downtown, and signed up to be a Marine.
“My parents were furious about me enlisting,” he said. “When I told them I was going into infantry, they were 10-times as mad.”
Kelly soon found himself on a bus headed to San Diego. “You know what’s coming up,” he said regarding boot camp. “You pull up. The drill instructors are lined up and jump on the bus before it comes to a stop, hollering at you.” That was just the welcoming committee.
He was later deployed to Iraq as an infantry Marine during the Second Persian Gulf War.
In possession of a natural distrust for authority when he joined, it got worse. “The most revealing moment for me in Iraq wasn’t combat. We were invading Iraq heading north. All of us are proud patriots. Word came down we had to take down our American flags, which were draped over our Amtrak train.”
Kelly said he and his comrades felt betrayed by their country. “I guess they didn’t want us to look like invaders.”
This is the part of the show where we talk about how the interview subject got into radio. This one is a doozy.
Kelly was released from the Marines with an honorable discharge after four years. He moved to Arizona, where he worked in construction.
In 2010, with no political experience but a box full of opinions, Kelly ran for Congress in a Democratic-controlled district of Arizona. Though a virtual unknown in the race, he was only narrowly defeated by Rep. Gabrielle Giffords.
“I got mad about Obama and ran for congress,” Kelly explained.
During a campaign stop, he was waiting to go on air with news/talker Jon Justice. “I was in a separate studio, and a guy I didn’t know walked in. He asked what I was doing, and I told him. He was a radio producer and asked if I’d ever thought of a career in radio. It was kind of strange.”
The stranger’s words planted a seed in Kelly’s brain, and that seed would soon germinate. After the attempt at politics, Kelly moved to Texas with no job; I was flat broke and got a job selling RVs.”
Kelly became active on social media, and the king of talk radio, Michael Berry in Houston, took notice of a post-Kelly had made and asked if he’d like to come on his show.
“I guess I just killed on the air,” Kelly said. “He kept me on the phone for three segments. We had a blast.”
In a celebratory move, Kelly pulled out all the stops and pulled into a Taco Bell for a real treat. Then his phone rang. It was Michael Berry again, and they chatted for a half-hour, an uneaten Chilupa in Kelly’s hand. “After that, we started hangin’ out, drinking bourbon, and smoking cigars. He convinced me that I had a future in radio.”
Apparently, he did.
KPRC in Houston gave him a 7-8 p.m. slot as a trial. “I just started talking. I didn’t know a thing. Nobody had ever taught me what to do.” He must have really killed again, somehow finding an audience. KPRC gave him a second hour.
Out of the radio-blue, Key Networks came calling and told Kelly they thought his show had some chops. The Jesse Kelly Show debuted as a three-hour program in national syndication in April 2020.
It keeps getting better.
After only a year on Key Networks, Julie Talbott, president of Premiere Networks, kept the fortunate string of success going.
Kelly joined Premiere Networks’ national lineup on June 28, 2021.
“I didn’t even know who Julie Talbott was, and she was listening to my show,” he said. “After all the fart jokes I told, she was still listening,” Kelly explained. “Premiere offered me a 6-9 slot in Houston. My wife nearly passed out in excitement.”
Kelly is certainly not a guy that sounds full of himself; that alone is refreshing. “I have no idea why people listen to me; I don’t know why affiliates are happy. I’ll take it,” Kelly said.
The man has an honest, authentic approach to radio. That should be obvious, considering he airs on 200 hundred stations nationwide.
Sometimes having a strategically placed horseshoe can take you a long way.
Covering Traumatic Events Are Part of the Job in News Media
There are countless instances, and events that create trauma and angst that can disassemble us from the inside out yet are part of our jobs.
There were different plans for this week, different ideas, and certainly an unrelated topic of discussion in mind. But of course, what happened in Buffalo last weekend cannot be ignored or pushed aside, just as similar failures of humanity could not and should not be.
We can certainly be more than a dozen people walking into a supermarket on that day with different plans and a separate map for the day. The police officers, the firefighters, and EMTs were not planning on the radical change to their shifts. Store workers certainly weren’t expecting the day to change their lives.
I’m not going to speak of the purported source of this calamity except to say he was in court this week, and the criminal justice system will progress and unfold as it does.
To keep our purposes on track for the moment, let’s look at the news, people, and no, I’m not talking about the coverage brought to us by the cable network shows. Think what you want, but I’m not very interested in what this person or that person sitting behind a desk has to say about the latest tragedy as they point fingers at what went wrong and search for the failures of this agency, that parent, or an administration past or present.
It’s not helpful, and there’s another time for all that.
I’m talking about the first responders of news people. The radio and TV are right there in Buffalo. The print and digital people work with the smallest of the weekend staff. They were planning to cover other things that day; a festival, a charity event, and maybe work on a feature report they were preparing for sweeps.
Who was thinking the nod from the assignment desk would change everything? Suddenly, the scene was going to become one of absolute frenzy and horror. The time before, the news trucks, reporters, and stringers were pushed back by police as the building was entered. Then just that quickly, the media briefing spot, if there is one established, is set further and further away.
There are countless instances, and events that create trauma and angst that can disassemble us from the inside out yet are part of our jobs. Among the most unimaginable to me is the act of pointing a camera at or holding a microphone towards those whose worlds in mere seconds were destroyed by the callous act of another.
And yet, doing so is not a reprehensible deed. It is what the position calls for, the story is to be told, and we must say to it correctly and honestly, often brutally. And believe it or not, more often than we find those most horrifically impacted by these horrible crimes that scream the loudest. Who wants their outrage known, their devastation felt.
Whether or not it becomes exploitation is up to the journalist there and then.
There’s an expectation from the viewer, the listener, and the reader that’s what the news is going to do; the reporter will get a reaction from those with the most right to react, those who lost so much.
And the reporter, the good reporter, will get just that.
It can come at a cost, though. Like many vocations, there’s a price to pay for it all, for having the ability to look into the eyes of someone crushed by tragedy and then elicit a response, to get them to open their souls when they are at their very worst. It’s difficult enough to witness such scenes, the carnage, and the aftermath and then talks with those at their most vulnerable.
However, good reporters can easily find themselves caught up in the tragedy and bewilderment that others are enduring. How can a person witness such sadness and horror and not be adversely affected? Is it even a possibility?
There are precedents too numerous to list, too obvious and familiar to need mention. Mass shootings alone fill books to make individual acts of terror, war and conflict, and natural disasters.
But what makes that journalist any less vulnerable?
With visual and audible reporting, a human response is readily apparent; with the written word, the author’s humanity comes across in how they interpret the events, but the result is the same. It is a skill and often a curse to not appear overly impacted by tragedy without appearing robotic.
But you cannot deal with people with it penetrating. Unfortunately, what has happened in Buffalo (and countless other cities) is still happening. All one needs to do is read between the lines of social media posts from news people covering these horrible stories.
I do not know how anyone could not go to such places, cover such stories and not grieve with those grieving, not be changed somehow. What is remarkable is how such people can come away from and still do their jobs.
So with that, a caution and a hope.
Trauma and the after-effects do not generally come via an instant diagnosis from a mental health professional.
Our esteemed members of the press out there owe it to themselves to stop and note what they’re putting those fine journalistic minds and hearts through when the complex stories come their way.