The 3 and Out with John Middlekauff podcast has been acquired by Colin Cowherd’s network The Volume. Cowherd’s programming approach is “same sports, different angles.” I typically watch games while standing on my head, but I digress. This isn’t about me; this interview is about the former NFL scout, turned terrestrial radio host, turned podcasting stud. If you want different angles, Middlekauff’s got ‘em thanks to his time in the league. It doesn’t hurt that the Davis, California native is also smart, experienced, and unapologetically opinionated.
Some huge names have had a powerful impact on Middlekauff’s career. You can’t do much better than working with Andy Reid in football and Cowherd in broadcasting. In our chat below, the Cal Poly graduate makes an interesting point that the best advice he’s received was never spoken. Middlekauff talks about how he gauges success in podcasting and the most challenging role of his career. There is also a nod to his Bay Area radio days with Guy Haberman and Jason Barrett as well as some rapid-fire NFL gems. Enjoy.
Brian Noe: What was it about Cowherd’s network that convinced you it was the right place for your podcast?
John Middlekauff: I’ve been with Colin since the inception of this podcast on his other network. He’s the best in the business. Any time that a guy like that believes in you and helps you start something and is behind you, I don’t think you can ask for anything more. If Colin says let’s do this, I’m doing it. It’s not a complicated strategy. I just follow Colin’s lead to wherever he’s headed and I’ll be right behind him
BN: What are the things in the podcasting space that appeal to you more than terrestrial radio?
JM: I’ve been doing it now for five years. I worked in terrestrial radio for about three. I would say the things that I like, one, you’re coming for me. If you’re listening to the show, you are seeking me out. A lot of radio shows — now the big ones, you’re going for Colin — but most radio shows if you’re on the station, you might just end up on a show. You may like the guy, you may not, but you’re just stuck. Where in podcasting if you’re listening — it’s why a small percentage of podcasts are making a lot of money — people seek them.
The other thing is for me in radio, you’re partners with teams because you have to be in the big markets. It can be dicey for me. I’m someone that does not hold back. I don’t give a f*** what other people think. I’m not just trying to make things up but the team’s get very sensitive in my experience.
Now I was dealing with the second-rate teams in the area. I can understand dealing with the Yankees, the Cowboys, the San Francisco Giants, the 49ers — I get there’s a balance because they generate a lot of money for you. But the teams I was dealing with were struggling. They got so sensitive. Especially the football team was losing so much. It became very stressful. I’m paid to talk and be authentic. That’s one thing in the podcast space I can truly say whatever I want. I enjoy it a lot personally.
BN: In radio, the report card is the ratings book. What’s the metric in podcasting you look at to gauge success?
JM: Revenue. As long as we’re making money and growing, I feel good about it. I always thought the ratings thing in radio, it’s just made up. It’s based on a couple of meters. I think it’s a sham. You have no clue how many people are listening. Absolutely none. I live in a market with eight million people and it’s based on like 10 meters? It’s insane. If 1.5 million people listen to me in a given month, that’s actual people listening.
One time we had Terrell Owens on when I was working for Jason Barrett in radio. He was still a really big deal. The 20-minute interview did like a 30 share. Our show was number one in the market that month. That was a really big deal for the station. We were all fired up. But the next month we’re doing a sweet show, big guests, and we were maybe like fourth. You’re just playing these games with these meters. I don’t have to play any games with meters now. That’s a major, major difference. There’s no manipulation of it.
BN: Yeah, it matters but it’s so goofy. It’s like stoppage time in soccer where it’s not precise. It’s just ehh, we’re kind of making stuff up as we go along. And you live and die by that. It’s crazy.
JM: It’s wild. It’s like you can control it but you feel like you have no control over it. And then all of a sudden you’re like oh a meter left, and now he doesn’t listen to you anymore. So you just dropped like two points, but you’re like I think our show is better than it was two months ago and now we’re getting our ass kicked. What is going on? That’s the difference in podcasting, again at the higher levels.
This is my business. This is not a passion project for me. This is what I do to pay the bills. There’s no screwing around here. You have that mindset in radio; you approach it like a real job. It’s very serious. I think it helps since leaving you just maintain that mindset and treat it the same even though the meter and the ratings do not exist. That’s a major pressure relieved from your shoulders. You don’t even have to think about it. You got to get people to listen. You got to keep growing. But to me it’s easier to do that than it is to add an extra meter out there and you don’t even know the human or what he even likes.
BN: The knock among industry folks is that podcasting is harder to monetize. What has been your experience as far as that goes?
JM: Yeah, no issues. It was hard at first I’d say three or four years ago. But in 2021, I’ve had a lot of success monetizing. The two podcasts I’m a part of definitely generate revenue. I know that. I’d say the other difference is, as a radio host you don’t get to own the show. As a podcast you potentially get the ability to own your show or be a partner in your show and own the revenue coming in. That’s just something that’s a little different.
Now I would say one major difference is like you said the knock that a lot of podcasts can’t make money. It’s harder to generate; it is more of a hustle. But I’d say most businesses are a little bit of hustle at the ground floor. I argue that terrestrial radio is getting more and more segmented and splitting up. TV stations are cutting budgets. That’s the one thing in the digital space where they’re adding. A company like The Volume; they’re going to try to grow where some of the old-school television shows or a terrestrial radio station, they’re cutting. It’s going to be hard for them to ever add again. They’re probably not going to come back.
BN: When you think about your entire career — we’re talking scouting, radio, podcasting — what do you think has been your biggest break?
JM: It’s probably not one. There are so many influential people that changed my life. I’d say Pat Hill changed my life. Andy Reid changed my life. Once I transitioned into media I could just say I worked for Andy Reid and Howie Roseman. I would say without Guy Haberman I never would’ve gotten into radio. Who knows? Maybe I’d be selling insurance now. And then with Colin, he’s changed my life. It’s just individuals that believe in you, take a chance on you, and then once you’re able to associate with them, they are high-level, well-respected people in their business. Andy is one of the best coaches. Colin’s one of the best ever. Those two guys alone, it changed my life for sure.
I’d say there are always seminal moments. There’s nothing like your parents. Without them none of this is possible. But then once you become an adult you meet different people that can take you on paths that you didn’t know. If you asked me 10 years ago would I be sitting here talking to you, who knows? I get a lot of questions like where do you see yourself in five years? Well, I think that question was a lot easier to answer in like 1996. The world changes at rapid speed. I don’t f***in’ know what’s going to be around. [Laughs] Who knows? I think in this profession it’s borderline impossible to answer.
BN: What’s some of the best advice you’ve gotten from the who’s who of people you’ve worked with?
JM: I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily like individual advice. I would just be able to say watching their actions. The way they operated. The way they conducted themselves. Starting with Pat Hill and Andy just how friendly and nice, how much ownership they took in everything, and just the way they conducted themselves. Then when you meet all these other famous people that know them and how they revere those guys, it’s just like well I can see why.
Being around Colin, I remember a couple of years ago at the Super Bowl, just the way he treats his staff. He’s probably one of the more famous people I know. You see some of these stories about Hollywood people and you’re like God; he’s the complete opposite. He’s incredible. He really is a unique, authentic individual. It was the way I was raised; treat people well, do the right thing. And if you’re talented hopefully the cream will rise. That’s really something I kind of think about more than any individual advice like get into the break fast or that type of stuff. [Laughs] I don’t really think about that as much.
BN: It reminds me of Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers. Favre didn’t have to say hey, do this and look out for that. But being around a guy like that is helpful. Is that similar to your experience?
JM: I think any time that I’ve ever had the opportunity to be around someone really successful, it was less about getting their words. Because again as an individual it’s hard to just take something someone’s said, but if you can just emulate the things that they do and the way that they treat people if they do it the correct way, I think that is a game-changer in life.
BN: What has been the most challenging role and the most enjoyable role you’ve had throughout your career?
JM: I would say the challenging role was my first year when I got to the NFL. It was just hard. There were just a lot of things going on. You’re fighting for your professional life. You’re basically on a one-year $20,000 contract, just the lowest guy on the totem pole. You’re doing all of these — looking back — trivial tasks, but at the time you feel like I got to pick this player up at the airport. I’ve got to get sandwiches for the coaches. You just feel pressure with everything you’re doing even if it gets up to oh, they’re letting me evaluate some players. That was just really, really intense. Just the pressure obviously going to Philadelphia, it was crazy. But it was good crazy. It was hard, there’s no doubt about it.
I would say doing podcasts now. The impact and seeing people that enjoy it, it’s definitely cool. Some of the sports media stuff can bore me. Just doing your go-to stuff. The clickbait.
I’m going to talk about what I want to talk about. I’m not going to talk about offensive linemen. I’m going to talk about the quarterbacks and the coaches. I’ve got a pretty good idea. I think like a fan. I’m not worried about the practice squad because that stuff kind of bored me when I was in the NFL, but you had to be really focused on it. So I just enjoy doing shows and having people like it.
BN: I’m just curious, man, if you break down your time scouting in the league year by year, what was that timeline for you?
JM: I was with Fresno State for two years. Then I was with the Eagles for three years. Andy got fired my third year. That’s when Chip Kelly came in. At the draft I got let go. I was probably 28. I didn’t know that many people in the league. So I didn’t really know what to do. I tried to get on some other places and I didn’t. It was like should I try to move somewhere? My third year I was able to work on the West Coast for the Eagles for college. I lived in San Francisco. I got to come back west. I was like I don’t really want to move. I want to do my own thing. That’s when Guy had just gotten hired by JB. I got lucky there. If he hadn’t been there who knows? I don’t know what I would have done.
I wasn’t dead set. I think a lot of people — that’s all they were going to do. Being in the NFL, I think that’s the way it is with the NBA, with baseball, these guys are just driven. They’re junkies. I don’t like football that much. I want to go play golf. I have other interests in business and other stuff that I do. There are other things that I want to do and I enjoy watching other sports. You don’t really have time for that sometimes depending on the time of the year. It’s just football in this bubble. It’s crazy.
I’m able to do it now on a much, much lower level than eat, breathe, sleep it 24/7, 365. There are so many players in the league. It takes a lot of time to master the league. And then even once you do, just to keep up and maintain it, it takes a lot of energy. It’s always moving. All of these coaches. I think a lot of fans say I would love to do that. It sounds good in theory and then you find out you make probably way less than you would make doing your job and the hours are insane. Again it’s the football 24/7, 365.
BN: With Guy in San Francisco, how did it come to be where you ended up on a show together?
JM: I think over the summer maybe in July or early August of 2013, he’s hosting the night show and doing the A’s postgame. He’s like bro, come in. Just come in for 30 minutes, you’re an NFL scout, we’ll talk Raiders, Niners, and just around the league. I think I did it a couple of times and JB was a legit boss. I would imagine most bosses around the country ain’t listening to some of the guests that come on the night show, but he was newer and putting the station together. It might have been the first time I went in, Guy hits me up a few days later and was like hey, my boss at the station just heard you and he’s going to reach out. He wanted me to become a part of the station on just like a random contributor type thing. It really all started because Guy had me on for 30 minutes, JB listened, liked it, and it kind of went from there.
BN: I’ve got a couple of rapid-fire NFL questions. What’s the storyline you’re most fascinated by heading into the season?
JM: I’m biased but it’s got to be the 49ers quarterback situation. Maybe just all the rookie quarterbacks. There are five guys drafted in the top 15. With five quarterbacks drafted that high, it’s going to be fun to watch. I’m excited.
BN: Is there anything that’s talked about a decent amount heading into the season that you don’t find very interesting?
JM: That’s a good question. The Deshaun Watson thing has started to bore me a little bit. Just suspend the guy, trade the guy; how long are we going to go on? It feels like it’s not going away because who’s going to trade for him right now. That story is getting exhausting. People just keep acting like he’s tradable. He’s not tradable until we get some clarity on the legal stuff. He’s no longer just Deshaun Watson 2020. He’s got some off-the-field issues that are kind of a big deal right now.
BN: Do you have a best bet for the season?
JM: I like Matt Stafford or Josh Allen to win MVP. I’d probably lean Josh Allen MVP. He might have a sweet season. He might just be unreal.
BN: What are you most bullish about in terms of a team exceeding expectations or being a disappointment?
JM: I think the Patriots are going to be good. Belichick’s just coming off a bad season. You got Mac Jones. They got all of these guys back on defense. Last year’s team sucked and they went 7-9. Jon Gruden, year four, I just think they’re not going to be good. Six, seven wins for $10 million a year. I think that place has a chance to be a disaster.
BN: Who do you think is the best color analyst in the NFL right now?
JM: I enjoy Tony Romo. I just enjoy his energy. I know some people think he’s cheesy or whatever but there are so many analysts that are awful. Let’s face it; there are a lot of broadcasters that are just terrible. You just mute them. Just f***ing throw on some music. It’s bad.
Most national broadcasts in 2021 — maybe it was different 15 years ago, it felt like it was good — it just doesn’t feel like it’s that good anymore. There are so many players, so many injuries, so many moving parts. That’s a tough job for the analysts. I’m not saying it’s easy. So even the guys that suck, it’s hard. I wouldn’t want to do it.
BN: By the way, I get a little bit of a Philip Rivers vibe from you. Just in terms of your energy and cadence.
JM: I appreciate that.
BN: You curse. Phil doesn’t. Other than twang and cursing, I sense some Phil.
JM: No children yet.
BN: [Laughs] Maybe there are like nine on the way for you.
The Sports Junkies Are Still Barking
“I want us to go down as one of the most memorable morning shows in D.C. history. Maybe we’re halfway there. Let’s hope.”
The Sports Junkies have been a fixture in Washington D.C. for a quarter-century. The four members of the popular sports radio show are celebrating their 25th year together. Their history off the airwaves goes back even further; three of the members went to nursery school together. The Junkies established a friendship and a bond long before they were ever colleagues. You can hear that chemistry on the air.
My brother-in-law once described my nephews by saying, “They love each other, but they might not always like each other.” The same is true at times for the Junkies. Sure, they butt heads and occasionally try to gouge each other’s eyes out, but in the end it’s a brotherhood. The dust-ups don’t last long. The love and support from your brothers is what really matters.
The Junkies faced very long odds in the beginning. A cable access TV show and a newspaper article led to them being discovered. The radio show began in their hometown, which happened to be in a top-10 market. That’s like winning the lottery. The Junkies have made the most of their opportunities, and after 25 years, they have plenty of stories to share. Below we chat about sleeping in a coffin for two days, beating a women’s professional team in tackle football, and having a fun show that can also handle mature topics. Enjoy!
The four members:
Eric “EB” Bickel
Jason “Bish” Bishop
John “Cakes” Auville
John-Paul “JP” Flaim
Brian Noe: Starting with the cable access TV show, what do you guys remember most about that first show?
EB: The quality was low. Nobody watched it or anything like that, but we took it very seriously. We were excited about it. My future mother-in-law suggested we do a cable access show since anybody in the neighborhood could get a show as long as you were paying taxes. She saw a political show that some other neighbors were doing and she said hey Eric, you and your friends should do a sports show. We went and investigated. They said if you learn how to use the equipment, anybody can do it.
I brought my sister and my future in-laws and other friends and family; they helped us run the cameras and the audio and worked as producers. We dressed all up, treated it like SportsCenter. We were excited about it. It was pretty nerve-wracking for us considering nobody was watching it, but it was something that we took very seriously.
Bish: I remember how nervous I was because we were at JP’s parents’ house in Bowie. We were in the kitchen and we were getting all jacked up to go. We had to be there in 20 minutes to start recording and I said let’s just do a shot. JP said all right, I got some Jack Daniels here. We did a shot of whiskey before we drove over to cable access to do the show. It was only one shot, but I remember I was very nervous, absolutely.
EB: It was low quality, low budget. We’d use spare parts from other shows like their little divider thing, we’re using it as a backdrop. My wife made a sign. It was as homegrown as you can imagine.
JP: But we were having fun. That was the big thing. It was four guys who knew each other, having fun, and it was kind of a light bulb moment for us. It was like holy shit, I’ve got this terrible job — or I was in law school at the time — let’s see what we can do with this thing.
Cakes: I was the one that had the terrible job. I had the 1-seed of terrible jobs working in retail. It was a fun escape for me to do something that I was passionate about because I wasn’t passionate about selling toys.
Bish: Well at least you guys all had jobs.
EB: We thought it was fun and let’s keep doing it. Let’s try to get better at it. And as JP said, let’s go for the one-in-a-million shot that we can make something of it because none of us wanted real jobs. JP was in law school. I was finishing up a master’s in education. Cakes was working already in retail. Jason had odd jobs. None of us really wanted to get real jobs, so let’s shoot for the moon. We’re all sports nuts. We were having so much fun with it. Let’s just see what we can do.
Noe: Where did you get your first break in radio following your cable access show?
EB: What really happened is we did it once a week for about a year. JP would come back from Philly from law school and we’d all get together once a week, knock it out and then go back to our lives. After doing it for about a year we said you know what, this isn’t awful. It’s somewhat entertaining. We should send out tapes to media critics like the Washington Post, the Washington Times, USA Today, and then maybe one of them will write an article about the show, and then maybe a TV station or a radio station will call us.
We sent out three tapes, one to Len Shapiro at the Washington Post, one to Rudy Martzke at USA Today, and one to Dick Heller at the Washington Times. Dick’s the only one that responded really. I spoke to Rudy; Rudy didn’t have any interest. Len never really liked us, but Dick really liked the story. He liked the show and wrote an article about us.
JP: That changed our life. March 25, 1996; that article came out and changed the trajectory of our lives.
EB: It was almost out of a fantasy world. The article came out and within an hour WJFK 106.7 FM called us and asked us if we had any interest in working in radio because they had just acquired the rights to the Redskins. They weren’t a sports station and they needed some talent on the weekends to talk sports. So we said sure, yeah, we’d love to. That was the dream. We went down there and had an interview with them. They were intrigued. They said do you want to come by next week and do a demo? We said sure. They said all right, do you want to go on air? And we said sure. They said all right, that didn’t suck, do you want to come back next week? We said yeah.
Cakes: We showed up at the interview wearing ill-fitting sport coats and ties. We looked like the biggest nerds ever.
JP: We thought you had to dress up for an interview in radio. The first thing that Jim McClure said is you know this is radio, why are you dressed up?
EB: Yeah, because we didn’t know. We couldn’t believe that they were intrigued enough by our story that they would put us on such a massive station. Even though it was on the weekend, we couldn’t believe it, with no experience. And they kept doing it.
Noe: What aspects on the air have you tightened up the most from those early days to where you are now?
Bish: Well we still talk over each other. I know that.
Cakes: Yeah, but not as much as we used to. We used to be really, really bad at that. We would trample over each other all the time where it was almost unintelligible. That still happens from time to time, but I think we have gotten better at that. I think we’ve gotten better at interviewing people over the years as well. I think we get athletes, coaches, whoever, to open up to us a little more than they might to some other people in the media. We don’t present ourselves as journalists. We’ve never been journalists. We’re just fans that got a really good shot, we ran with it, got some good luck along the way, but we’ve never painted ourselves as journalists ever.
EB: We’ve also never painted ourselves as experts. I think that’s kind of been the appeal too is that hey, we’re just fans and we certainly have strong opinions and are knowledgeable in certain areas, but we don’t claim to know everything. I think at the time when we started you had to be a know-it-all to be a sports radio guy. We weren’t that. We were just fans having fun, like guys would be hanging out at a bar or something.
JP: And we’ve never been just a sports show. What I would say we’ve gotten better at, and it’s always a big part of the show, is storytelling. Not the sports stuff; yesterday we spent probably 10 to 15 minutes talking about the Chick-fil-A drive-thru. Eric brought up an experience with like 60 cars in a Chick-fil-A drive-thru. We’re more comfortable moving off of just sports. If you went to our show in 1996 when we were first starting out, we might’ve done an outline for three hours, every segment kind of planned out, and it was all very sportsy. Now it’s just a little looser. I think you get more comfortable over time talking about certain topics.
Noe: If I had told you 25 years ago that hey, you’re going to interview Magic Johnson, or Cal Ripken Jr. is going to talk about the Junkies in your book that’s coming out, what’s the wow moment that you wouldn’t have believed would happen, that actually did come true?
Cakes: You’re going to laugh at me because this is white trash, but I don’t care, through a connection on the show I got to sing on stage with Poison. I was a big hair metal guy growing up. Another guy in radio was like hey man, I don’t want to go on stage and sing with Poison, do you want to do it? I was like are you kidding me? Of course I would do it. I would love to do that. Just opportunities like that. And I got to hang out with Bret Michaels on his tour bus for like two hours after the show. I never thought anything like that would ever happen. I never thought we’d get access to the players and coaches that we’ve been able to over the years. We interviewed two of the members of Metallica when we were back at the alt-rock station at HFS in the early 2000s. I never thought that would happen.
Bish: Here’s another one, Brian. We had Lenny Dykstra on the show. He was promoting a book and he was living in L.A. I just so happened to be planning a trip to L.A. with my family about six weeks after we had him on the show. I said hey Lenny, I’ll going to be out in L.A. with my family, can we hook up? I thought he was going to BS me, he goes yeah sure, just contact my PR guy. I contacted his PR guy and he said yeah, give him my number.
I contacted Lenny when I was out there and he invited me to the Beverly Hills Hotel bar. I met him there. We hung out all night and I was at his apartment. He lived above a garage at a $10,000,000 home in Beverly Hills. I hung out with Lenny Dykstra all night getting hammered until three in the morning. He was telling stories and it was unbelievable. It was just surreal. Pretty fuckin’ cool.
EB: This will sound cocky but this is honestly true, I actually envisioned all of this happening. I knew we had good chemistry. I knew the station very well. I was a huge listener of the station and I thought we were going to hit a home run. I was like oh my God, we’re gonna kill this. I’ll be honest with you, I envisioned all of these things. I’m actually disappointed because there’s one thing that we haven’t done that I thought we were going to do. I swear to God, we’ve been in Sports Illustrated, we’ve been in Forbes magazine or Fortune magazine, one of those…
JP: Barrett Sports Media…
EB: So many opportunities. But I always thought honestly that we would be guests on The Tonight Show or Letterman. I really did. I envisioned that we would be on, that we’d be like
JP: Like Mad Dog. Mad Dog used to do that.
EB: We were nationally syndicated for three years on Westwood and I just thought eventually, maybe after we replaced Stern or something, eventually we would be on with Letterman. So we’ve actually failed. We’re never going to be on.
JP: Jason actually played hoops at Cal Ripken Jr’s place. That’s pretty amazing. I had three posters growing up, Cal was one of them.
Noe: Did you school him?
Bish: I played pretty well. I was a little intimidated when I first got there. He invited a bunch of former college players. Some of the Orioles were there too. I guarded him at least one game. He’s strong as an ox. He would back me in and use his ass and thighs, but I got him out on the perimeter and I was hitting jumpers. It was a very competitive game. I’ll tell you this; Cal, he doesn’t fuck around, man. He’s not out there just trying to have a good time, he was out there to win. It was very competitive and that’s what I liked about it. I went up there twice to play. That was one of the more memorable moments.
JP: Brian, this one blows me away; the four of us, the four Sports Junkies have World Series rings and Stanley Cup rings.
EB: That’s true.
Cakes: We’re Stanley Cup and World Series champions.
JP: I have two championship rings. I can barely skate, Brian, and I have a Stanley Cup ring.
Noe: That’s crazy. As far as the craziest moments from the show, whether it’s playing a women’s professional football team or anything else, what moments stand out to you most?
EB: Well that was obviously one of the highlights; that was just so much fun. We drew like over 8,000 fans. I’ll never forget we outdrew the Georgetown Hoyas that night. That was unbelievable. The buildup to that, it was amazing. The turnout, the execution, it was perfect. We said it was all downhill from here. There’s no way we can do better than that.
Cakes: And it was not 70 degrees and perfect weather. I want to say it was like 40 degrees. It was raining. It was like the worst night and the turnout was unbelievable.
Bish: It was like Friday Night Lights, man. It was the real deal even though we were playing against girls. We had never played organized football before. I just remember how quick it was. There was a play clock just like a regular college game. But once we settled down it was cool.
JP: That ladies’ professional football team was always trying to get on our show. We were like why would we ever have them on the show? We had Clinton Portis and Fred Smoot on at the time. I just pitched the crazy idea, I was like what if we challenge that women’s team to a game, but the twist is it’s not powder puff football, we would challenge them to tackle. Then it blew up into this whole big thing. We just couldn’t believe how many people were in the freaking stands. It was over 8,000 people there to watch us play women in tackle football.
Bish: We killed them. We probably should’ve beaten them by 50, but they were calling all kinds of penalties on us. We had 13 penalties. But it was fun, man.
JP: I remember in our practices the coaches put us in the Oklahoma drill. Again I played high school soccer and high school baseball, okay Brian? I weighed 165 pounds at the time. We would get matched up against these monsters and just run into each other like rams. That hurt more than the actual game.
Cakes: Never again. It’ll never happen again. I’m pretty sure I bruised one of my ribs if not multiple ribs in the practices. I think JP knew a dentist. I was like hey man, can you get me some pain pills from your dentist?
JP: It was all above board, Brian. Remember this is on transcript, Cakes. [Laughs]
Cakes: I got a prescription and I had to pop a few pain pills so I could play in the game. But we couldn’t believe the support and the buzz that that event created.
JP: And that’s one thing you can do in radio, when you create something that people don’t know what the outcome is going to be, and they feel like they have to see it, you can create a big event.
EB: We did something then that we couldn’t do today. JP might be embarrassed about this, but being part of a guy talk station — we got a lot of negative attention — we did a porno swap. The Great American Porno Swap where we had people from D.C. and Baltimore all drop off their old pornos, put it into a barrel, and pull out somebody else’s old porno.
JP: Simple concept, Brian, one man’s trash is another man’s treasure.
Cakes: That was in the Wild, Wild West days of radio. You could never get away with something like that in 2021.
EB: But it was genius. I remember we had protesters, so that was a lot of fun.
JP: But a lot of happy listeners. You can’t contain this genius, Brian. They would put their hands into a pile of VHS tapes and then we would have them read the titles. I used to say they were feeding-the-monster events. We’ve been No. 1 rated in men 25-54. Our monster — the wall of men — they like drinking beer, women, that sort of thing. So we would have these type of events for that.
EB: And some of the various stunts like when Cakes slept in the coffin. That was just such a dumb stunt for Cakes to be in a coffin for two days, which look, I couldn’t do it. It’s not like he was in there for a month, but he was in there for two days and we had TV stations out covering it. It was just insanity.
Bish: To lay in a fucking coffin for two days in a radio studio, I can’t even believe he did it. Just when we were doing the show and we were talking to him, I could tell how uncomfortable he was. [Laughs] Especially the second day. I just couldn’t imagine laying there and just eating beef jerky for two days. I remember if I had to do it how uncomfortable I would be. It was almost like being buried alive. I just couldn’t have done it. No way.
JP: That started because we were talking about David Blaine on the air. At the time most of us were really impressed with David Blaine. Well, Cakes opened up his mouth and was like I could do that, that’s no big deal. I’ve got a bunch of kids. I could be in a coffin; I’d get some rest. We’re like are you crazy? You can’t do it. The next thing you know a listener calls in, offers to build a coffin, it was a makeshift coffin. It was terrible. Then somebody offered $2,500 and boom, the stunt was afoot.
Cakes: I don’t think it was 2,500. I think it was 1,500 if my memory serves.
EB: Way underpaid.
Cakes: Yeah, I was way underpaid for punting away two days of my life lying in a makeshift coffin. It should’ve been at least 5K minimum.
JP: But he did it, which was impressive. He wasn’t allowed to leave, couldn’t go to the bathroom, so he went in there with Gatorade bottles and jerky, right?
Cakes: Gatorade bottle, jerky, gummy bears. Those were the essentials. [Laughs]
Noe: To go from your stunts and fun stuff to mature topics like 9/11 or the D.C. sniper, how do you think you guys have handled those situations?
EB: Well I think that’s actually where we shine to be honest with you because we could get serious. Especially the sniper, that was happening in our backyard literally where we were broadcasting from. There were shootings right around the corner. We were on at the time when these were occurring. I think people have a lot of respect for the way we handled that. We took it seriously.
And 9/11 was mind-blowing for the entire country. We had to get serious. I remember doing hours and hours and hours, maybe for a week we did about 20 hours of broadcasts without commercials. I remember my dad being alive at the same time, he thought that was maybe the highlight of our careers just the way that we shifted gears and handled that.
Bish: I remember people calling up, former military or current military guys, and they were crying on the phone and talking about their kids over there. Dude, it was awful. But I think we handled it, man, because we were just showing people that we cared and we were kind of all in the same boat. No one knew how to react. It was like fuck Al-Qaeda, let’s go get bin Laden. After the first couple of days it started to become kind of like a rally. But back in the early 2000s, we could say shit. We could talk about our opinions and it was different. There was no threat of you getting fired if you shared an opinion, either if it was politically or socially or whatever the topic was. Fifteen, 20 years ago, the world has changed, but radio has really changed.
EB: That’s one thing I think that we’ve been pretty good at is being able to adapt. In today’s culture, cancel culture, with everybody being offended by everything these days, we’ve been able to efficiently navigate the waters and be able to understand sort of on the fly what works and what doesn’t. We’ve been able to survive whereas most of the people we started out with, icons in the industry, don’t work in radio anymore. They weren’t able to navigate the waters, or they had to go to satellite, or they had to start a podcast. I’m proud of the fact that we’re survivors and we’ve been able to navigate the waters. It’s not because we’re super talented. It’s just that we have chemistry. That’s our core, and we’re not as stupid as you might think. We’ve been able to figure it out.
Noe: Is there anything in the future that you haven’t experienced yet that you would love to do together?
Bish: I think podcasting is in our future. I drive 50 minutes into the city, so I’m getting up at four, getting out of the house at 4:30. Bro, that’s brutal. Especially when you’re 51. It’s just harder when you get older to do it. I still want to do stuff with them, I just want to do something where we have a little bit more flexibility with time. Morning radio is just a grind on your body and on your mind. Sometimes I’m not even awake until 7:30, an hour and a half into the show and I’m still fuzzy.
EB: For me just being able to keep doing it. It beats a regular job. You get paid handsomely. We have fun every day. Just being able to keep doing it, provide for our families and maybe eventually cruise into a little easier timeslot because getting up at 4:30 in the morning kills you. It takes years off your life. But just being able to be the four of us and do our thing. We’re not trying to dominate the TV world, we’re not trying to even be nationally syndicated or anything; we love being local radio hosts and being sort of a fixture of this community. I want us to go down as — this is going to sound cocky — but I want us to go down as one of the most memorable morning shows in D.C. history. Maybe we’re halfway there. Let’s hope.
Cakes: Oh, I don’t know if I have 25 more years of doing this in my tank.
Cakes: But we want to keep doing it as long as we can. Look, I’ll be honest, I don’t want to be a crotchety old guy talking like Don Imus. There are some guys that can keep going and going and going, but some guys you listen to on the radio when they get up to a certain age and you’re like ugh; I don’t want to get to that point where people are tuning in and they’re like this guy is passed his prime. You want to find that balance.
EB: You still want to be good, but the way I think of it is you work and then you die. I’d rather keep working to keep living.
Noe: If one of you guys is like man, I’m thinking about hanging it up, how would the rest of the Junkies respond to that?
EB: When one guy rolls out, I’m sure the other three would keep going. Who knows what the future is going to hold? Who knows what the future holds for radio? But I think by and large we’re all on the same page and we want to still keep providing. We know it sure beats work.
JP: Here’s the thing, Brian, we haven’t had that when’s-it-all-going-to-end discussion, but here’s the reality, I have a four-and-a-half-year-old. Eventually, she’s going to go to college. When she goes to college, that bill is going to be hefty. I’ve got a kid who’s at NYU right now. Look up the tuition; it’s hefty. Jason’s got two kids at Virginia Tech right now. Cakes has one in med school. That’s a lot of bills to pay, my friend.
Cakes: Yeah, a lot of bills. So many.
EB: And again, I’m not ready to just die yet.
JP: And really going back to the larger theme, we’ve got a fun job. Think about it; three of us went the nursery school together, and then kindergarten together, Jason since high school, we’re working with friends. The odds of that in life are very low. And then to do something like this, a four-hour show, we’re not digging ditches, we’re not putting on a suit and tie chasing billable hours.
Cakes: But let me also point out, we have not had even close to a Howard Stern level payday.
JP: [Laughs] Okay, that would be a game changer.
Cakes: That has not happened and I’m guessing it’s not going to happen. Now if anything like that were ever the happen, then circle back and talk to us if and when that happens.
EB: If Spotify wants to call and give us 100 million.
JP: Or 10. Ten million would be good.
EB: That would work.
Cakes: That’d be amazing.
Noe: Do you have a flashback moment — whether it’s good, bad, an interview, a stunt — anything from your time together that you tend to think about the most?
Cakes: I don’t have one in particular, but I just think the trips that we’ve taken. Whether it’s to spring training or Super Bowl sites, or to Atlantic City for poker tournaments, there’s something about a road trip element. Those are always touchpoints that you kind of remember events that happened when you’re outside of the norm of being in a studio. You tend to remember a lot of those things that happened on the road trips either when you’re at the venue or on the way to the venue, there’s weird stuff that happens. That stuff kind of sticks with me more than anything.
EB: I just remember beating the divas. I loved that. I said at the time if we didn’t beat them we’d all have to kill ourselves.
Cakes: That’s a little drastic, but it would’ve been embarrassing.
EB: No disrespect to women, I mean we just had to win that.
Cakes: By the way, that’s a one-off. It’s never happening again. We’re all 51 years old now. No way we’re doing that again.
JP: Yeah, when you do it for so long, you don’t think about the big picture as often. It’s day-to-day, it’s the grind. But I do remember that trip to the NFL draft. Our first road trip, that Manning/Leaf draft, when we got there to Madison Square Garden. It was one of those moments where like yeah, he was a manager at Toys R Us. I was in law school. Eric was studying for a master’s. Jason was kind of trying to get a job in sports, but he was working as a courier interning. It was like holy shit, we’re here. We’re here. It’s those cool moments where you look back; we were kids that played on the same basketball team when we were like 12 years old and boom, we’re here at the NCAA Tournament in St. Louis? They are kind of cool moments.
Bish: It’s nothing in particular that’s ever happened on the show, it’s just the fact that when I walk into my house and I go fuck, I can’t believe I have this. I can’t believe I’m able to put my girls through school. I can’t believe I’m able to save the money I am. I can’t believe I can go on vacation and it’s all because we were so fortunate back in the day to have Dick Heller write the article, to start on the weekends, and to just continually grow and grow and grow in popularity. Then our contracts are getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and I’m like I can’t believe I’m getting paid for this. And getting paid well.
Even now I just can’t believe — I mean I bitch about getting up at four, it sucks, but we work four hours a day. I can go play golf whenever I want. I spend time with my kids and my family. I can do all that. I don’t have to grind out eight, 10, 12 hours like a lot of guys do. The thing I think about the most is how fortunate we are, to be honest with you.
JP Flaim has written a book about the Junkies’ brotherhood and 25 years on the air together. The book is available at StillBarking.com.
What Does Chemistry Even Mean In Radio?
“Is chemistry between two or three people the kind of thing you just know when you see and hear it or is it something you can describe?
This is both an exciting and crappy time of year in radio. Stations are evaluating their future and their current standing in a market. That means some people are going to lose jobs. It also means new shows are being built.
There’s a word we hear a lot when teams are being assembled. Whether it is on a field or court or inside a studio, the guy picking the players will always talk about trying to find chemistry.
What does that mean exactly? Is chemistry between two or three people the kind of thing you just know when you see and hear it or is it something you can describe?
“There’s no exact science to putting a show together,” Sports Radio 610 PD Armen Williams tells me when I ask if chemistry is something he looks for on-air and off when he is trying to find the perfect pairing. “There are top-rated shows where the hosts are best friends, on and off the air. There are top-rated shows where the hosts hate each other and only talk directly to the other when they’re on the air.”
In the classroom, chemistry is a very specific thing. If Williams is right though, when you use the term to describe the relationship between two people, you will drive yourself mad sooner than you will accurately describe the definition. So let’s throw the dictionary out and just see what the people looking for chemistry are looking for when they are trying to build a show.
ARMEN WILLIAMS – SPORTS RADIO 610 (HOUSTON)
When Ron “The Show” Hughley auditioned with Clint Stoerner, Clint immediately told me afterward, “Hey, this is a guy that could run with my crew.” That says a lot. If these two would naturally connect on a level where they’d hang in a setting outside of the office, then once you turn the mics on and tell them to entertain the audience? It can be easier.
Going into an audition, there’s a balance between giving the hosts a little direction on what we’re envisioning for the main dynamic of the show, but also just allowing them be themselves and seeing how it unfolds. The magic happens when the second part comes together.
Every radio show is a sitcom. Gilligan couldn’t have had two Gilligan’s on the same cast. That would have been annoying. Instead, he’s surrounded by all these characters who complimented his role and enhanced the conversation and storyline. That’s the goal when putting hosts together.
ANDREW DOWNS – KXnO (DES MOINES)
You need chemistry, sure, but you need another dynamic to go along with that. It can’t just be people who think the same way or see the world in the same fashion, there needs to be some friction there as well. The chemistry comes from being able to argue on-air, or passionately debate an issue, and still smile and have fun and move on to the next topic. But a differing viewpoint is often necessary to have a complete conversation, and can even help sharpen one’s own argument to the contrary.
I’ve found when two hosts feel the exact same way about something it can come off as preachy and dismissive to any audience member who doesn’t align with that viewpoint. We try to come at things with sincerity and honesty, but at times someone needs to play devil’s advocate to have a compelling and complete conversation.
BRAD CARSON – 92.9 ESPN (MEMPHIS)
“Chemistry”, show “mojo”, show back and forth “understanding”, “dynamic”, show “energy”, etc. all are essentially in the same wheelhouse. They are areas of focus to understand show roles for cast members, the specific time within a show where a cast member talks, and what a host brings to a conversation or show. Successful shows are always refining this based on what we learn about cast members. For example, we learned here on 92.9 that Bennett on Gary Parrish’s show likes making small wagers… suddenly “Big Bet Bennett” arrives on the scene. Lol
In the case of sports talk, hosts should want to “add to” the conversation, the show. The chemistry for a show might include an “anchor” who brings the station in and out of breaks and is the primary driver. For example, Max Kellerman is now the successful driver during Keyshawn, JWill and Max. You can easily hear that and understand it.
One cast member might be the energy force on the show. In this same show example, Keyshawn Johnson is that. He brings energy and spark. He’s also the lead NFL personality. Ask about USC? You might know what type of energy is coming.
Focusing even more on this particular show, Jay Williams would be the basketball lead and then play off the other two cast members for other topics.
A show with successful team chemistry understanding has personalities who work well together using their defined roles. Occasionally breaking that role (and the key word being occasionally, which can offer limited appeal). Shows demonstrating bad chemistry might have cast members who don’t care to understand their place on the show and what is needed to make it more successful.
DAVID WOOD – 93.5 & 107.5 THE FAN (INDIANAPOLIS)
As you know, I just did this. Chemistry can mean a lot of things. Two people can hit it off and be deemed to have chemistry. However, two people laughing and having fun together doesn’t neccesarily define on air chemistry to me.
I’ve seen shows where the cast members were great friends and loved to spend time together on and off the air, but the show wasn’t very interesting. I’ve also been around shows where the talent didn’t have a deep relationship off the air, but on the air, they seemed like best friends because they were engaged with each other, communicated well and trusted each other.
I see on-air chemistry as a relationship where two (or more) people have the right mix of contrasts and similarities that create a product where the sum is greater than the parts. Two best friends who are too much alike are not nearly as interesting as two people who get along “okay” but have different perspectives and can have fun sparring about it.
TERRY FOXX – WFNZ (CHARLOTTE)
When I put a new show together with more than one person, the word “chemistry” is undoubtedly the first thing that pops in your mind. But it’s more than that—You want compelling contrast between a team of people. It’s the Michael Jordan vs Lebron James theory. You want your hosts to sound like they are just a group of people sitting in a sports bar with different opinions on the subject while telling a story to your audience. It must be entertaining, compelling, and factual.
Sam Mayes Got A Raw Deal But Tyler Media Made The Right Call
“You are being naive if you think a company should stand behind an employee that has put themselves in this situation.”
I do not envy whoever at Tyler Media had to make a decision about Sam Mayes’s future with the company after audio of a private conversation in 2016 was leaked to the media. Mayes and now-former co-worker Cara Rice made a few racist jokes at the expense of Native Americans.
The recording, according to Mayes, was made without his knowledge and leaked illegally. He says in a recorded statement that he should have been given the opportunity to address the recording on air and make amends.
Maybe that is true, maybe it isn’t. I hate for Sam to lose his job as the result of an illegal recording of a private conversation, but the fact is, that conversation isn’t private anymore. Tyler Media didn’t really have an option here. Sam Mayes had to go.
Someone had an illegal recording of the conversation and created an anonymous email account to send it to people in the Oklahoma City media. I was shown a copy of the email. The author states clearly that their goal is to see Mayes and Rice out of a job. There is nothing fair or just about that person getting exactly what they want. It feels slimy. I can’t say that it feels like it wasn’t the right call though.
We have debated whether or not someone should lose their job over comments made in a private conversation many times before. It happens in every field. It wasn’t long ago at all that we were having this same debate about Jon Gruden. His emails to Bruce Allen and others were sent in private. Is it fair he had to go when they were made public? No matter what horrible things were in there, they were said with the understanding that it would stay between friends.
I am going to say the same thing about Sam Mayes that I did about Gruden when that story first broke. You are being naive if you think a company should stand behind an employee that has put themselves in this situation.
You read that right. The circumstances of how the conversations in these examples came to light are absolutely unfair, but the conversations came to light. How it happened is irrelevant. Any sponsor or boss that stands behind Sam Mayes or Jon Gruden would be endorsing the language they used, either inadvertently or very much on purpose. Try explaining that to a sponsor.
People at Tyler Media may know Sam Mayes’s heart. He doesn’t seem like a bad guy. The fact of the matter is, once the audio became public, their hands were tied. There is no mistaking what was said or who said it.
How can any seller or manager take Mayes to advertisers now? How can they put him in front of the Lucky Star Casino, one of the station’s biggest advertisers? They can ask for an audience to let Sam explain himself and try to make amends. The Cheyenne and Arapahoe Tribes, who own the casino, are under no obligation to forgive or even listen.
Maybe the day will come where Sam Mayes bounces back. I hope it does. I hope he gets the chance to address his comments with members of Oklahoma’s Native American community and listen to what they have to say in response. I do think it sucks that this is how his time at The Franchise comes to an end, but I get it.
If I have to explain to you why not to say dumb, racist shit, then I don’t think we have much to talk about. But, it is worth noting that the recording of Mayes and Rice’s conversation is proof that privacy is always an assumption, not always a fact.
In his audio statement, Mayes admits it is his voice on the recording. He also says that he was uncomfortable with Rice’s comments and he tried to end their conversation. I’ll take him at his word, but I will also point out that before he tried to end the conversation, he joined in on the jokes. Maybe when someone says that Native Americans are “too drunk to organize” it isn’t a great idea to respond. All it leads to is proof of you saying something dumb and racist.
Again, I’ll reiterate that how these comments came to light is unfair, but they did come to light. That is Sam Mayes’s voice on the recording. He is joining in on the jokes about Native Americans being drunks and addicts. At the end of the day, the only thing that was done to him was the audio being released. He fully and willingly committed the firable offense.
What is the response to a client or potential client when they bring that up? All Tyler Media can do is try to recover and move forward. The company cannot do that with Mayes on the payroll.
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