It’s easy to like Mary Menna. I should know. I just talked to her last year for the first series of “Meet the Market Manager” columns.
A lot has happened since then. Her morning show has gone into syndication, her afternoon drive host has joined the Red Sox television crew, and she is in the middle of a lot of moves.
When we spoke on Monday, she was balancing getting her daughter moved, her parents moved, and moving Beasley’s Boston cluster to a new building one station at a time. A time like this, usually triggers feelings of nostalgia. Mary told me that moving the stations has involved “rifling through 32 years of history.”
Our conversation, presented by Point to Point Marketing, is all about looking forward though. We talk about Toucher & Rich’s future in the live space, how she is preparing for sports gambling to come online in Massachusettes, managing and creating new opportunities for talent at the top of their game and so much more.
Demetri Ravanos: Since the last time we chatted, ratings at the Sports Hub have stayed as impressive as ever. Obviously that changes a lot in terms of expectations. I wonder, does it change in your mind what is acceptable? I mean, after all of these 20+ ratings, could you foresee a day where something below even a 20 is unacceptable?
Mary Menna: Well, afternoon drive had a 25 in this last book. I’m really impressed throughout the very difficult past couple of years that we’ve had, with listening levels fluctuating for a lot of radio stations, not just in Boston, but certainly across the country, because listening patterns really changed that this particular brand excelled even more. I think it really speaks to the connection that they have with the audience. When things were very stressful in people’s day-to-day lives, they had companions to go to and our personalities were there for them.
So does it change my expectation? Of course. We want to continue to excel and beat our previous records. At some point, and we’re not there yet, but when you have 100% of the market you can’t go any further. I still think that we do have room to grow because we’re not there, nor do I think that realistically a brand could ever be at that level. But I think we still have some room to grow.
They’re all firing on all cylinders. I think every show is just really outperforming their past records. We’re very fortunate.
DR: So if Beasley looked at their portfolio across the nation and said that they saw opportunities to turn on new stations in other markets, how much of an adviser could you be? It stands to reason they would want to know what the Sports Hub is doing right and how they can get that elsewhere. How much guidance could you provide based on your success versus how much of it is specifically about 98.5 The Sports Hub and the Boston market?
MM: I couldn’t provide that guidance. I would leave that to the experts. I would leave that to Rick Radzik, Jim Louth and Cadillac Jack. I wouldn’t be that person.
I think every market is different, especially when you’re dealing with a very localized passion-based format like a local sports station. You know, fans in every market are a little bit different. So I think there is something to be learned from us here, but I don’t think you could just replicate it in ten different markets and expect that exact the same success. I also think it has a lot to do with the personalities that we have on air and how they’ve built that loyalty with their audiences.
DR: Unfortunately, you weren’t with us in New York, but you know that Rick Radzik was honored with the Mark Chernoff Award for Best PD. Felger & Mazz also received the inaugural Mike and the Mad Dog Award for the best local show in the country. Certainly, you guys are no strangers to those kinds of honors at the Sports Hub, but in those moments, do you take a second to sort of step back and think about all that you and the team have accomplished? I guess it sort of goes back to that first question about expectations and being the best sports radio brand in the country.
MM: Well, I think they are the best in the country. And thank you for those awards and the honors and for recognizing all of these people for all of their wonderful attributes and successes. It really is about them. I do think it is the best sports station in the country. It has the deepest connections with the audience.
DR: Toucher and Rich, since we last talked, have gone into syndication. How much of that are you involved with versus how much of that is the show sort of going out and selling itself to potential affiliates?
MM: This is something that they really wanted to do to expand their brand. Rich comes from The Kid Kraddick Show, so he learned syndication at an early stage in his career. So it was something that was important to them to branch out. So we did some exploratory research.
Actually, the person that is heading that up for us is Kraig Kitchen, who has quite a bit of experience in syndication. He’s just a wonderful person. He did some exploratory work in New England, and found there was a great amount of interest in carrying the show. Right now it is on in six markets in New England: three in Maine, one in New Hampshire, and two in western Mass.
DR: One of the things I’ve noticed every time they’re adding a new affiliate is there are a lot of rock stations, which is obviously what the show’s roots are, but there are a lot of rock stations that are taking the show just as it airs on 98.5. I wonder, were there any conversations you had to have with those guys about staying consistent? Even as you go into syndication, there are still big expectations on the Sports Hub.
MM: Of course! That is a show “sports that rock,” right? They are the epitome of that. One of the things that we wanted to be absolutely clear on is that we didn’t want the show to change.
The show has a lot of music in it. It’s got a lot of pop culture. It’s got a lot of Fred’s favorite television shows. It’s got a lot of comedy. So at the end of the day, all that mixture of comedy, pop culture and sports works on a rock station. That’s why the appeal is not just limited to sports formats. That’s why the show does work in syndication regionally.
DR: Toucher & Rich have taken their bit “Brookline 911″ and turned it into a live show. Is this the start of a new strategy for them? We talk about this a lot in the podcast space. Those audiences are loyal and support live versions of their favorite shows. It certainly seems like Toucher & Rich have an audience with the kind of loyalty that could keep these shows going for a long time.
MM: So, they did their first one on Friday. It was to a sold-out crowd of their most loyal fans, and it went really well. It was really well produced. It was funny. It was a great show. So I could see that. I could see them replicating that.
I think part of that idea started off with Matt Siegal. Matty had done one sold-out show at the Wilbur and then he did a series of them. Fred and Matt are really good friends, so I think that’s kind of where that idea started from.
DR: So I want to talk about another one of your talents now, Tony Massarotti. He is part of the Red Sox booth on NESN, as part of a rotating cast of analysts. Were there any questions you needed answers to before that deal got done or was he free to have those conversations and pursue that opportunity without needing approval of any sort?
MM: Tony absolutely was very respectful. We did talk about the pros and cons of everything together. He definitely needed us to be able to allow him to do that.
It was an important thing for Mazz. He is a huge Red Sox guy, right? He’s written several books. He was a beat writer for the Herald and the Globe. He probably knows baseball better than anybody on the staff, so when they approached him, it was something that was really interesting to him. He didn’t see it coming. He just never thought that it would happen. When the opportunity did come to him, he started thinking about it. It was very appealing to him.
I think, you know, when you asked the question earlier about “when you’re on top of the game, what are your expectations,” right? I don’t think that highly motivated people are satisfied with being at the top of their game. They always want something else, and so I think as a manager, if that happens, you have to be able to give them that space to be able to grow and to do things that take them to another level. For Tony, this was it. For Toucher and Rich, I think syndication was that for them. If there are those special things that come into their lives that are a good opportunity for them to grow, for it to be additive to the whole team, then why not?
So we did have to be very careful because we didn’t want it to impact our afternoon drive show. The Red Sox and NESN were very collaborative to try and make this work in a way that wouldn’t take them off the air. He certainly couldn’t do a whole season. It’s too many games. So we didn’t want it to impact that much of the show.
They were very workable in terms of which days and how that was going to work. Plus, Tony being the ultimate professional, he certainly doesn’t need to get to the ballpark 6 hours ahead of game time so he can go in there and do a great job. He’s really doing a great job in all aspects.
DR: You said that someone who is highly motivated is not going to be satisfied with being on top of the game. As a manager, you have to be willing to let them explore these kinds of opportunities when they present themselves. Is that something that you were taught or had to learn on your own?
Boston is certainly one of the marquee markets for sports talk radio. It’s not a surprise to me that your guys are getting these other opportunities to put the spotlight on themselves in different ways. I just wonder how you prepare for that kind of environment and learning what works and what doesn’t in terms of building trust when you’re talking about dealing with superstars in this business who have other ambitions.
MM: I don’t think it took learning. I think it’s just innate. When an opportunity presents itself you have to talk about it and get all the stakeholders involved. I mean, Rick was involved, Cadillac was involved, so we all talk about it. Tony, of course, was involved.
How can this work? If it’s going to work, how does it work? We want you on the air. We don’t want you off four days a week. You know, you take vacation anyway, how can we work this out?
We came up with a system that really kind of works for this year. Hopefully, we can replicate that and learn from whatever mistakes we might make as we go through this process. You don’t really know until you’re in it, but you try to set up some bumpers so that everybody kind of gets what they want.
Right now, we’re really very fortunate that it’s working. And Tony is just such a great guy. He’s always going to care about the the the product and the outcome and doing the right thing.
DR: Lawmakers in Massachusetts recently paved the way for sports betting to come to the state. We don’t know all the details yet, but it seems like it will happen. How ready are you to start pursuing those clients and taking advantage of that money cannon that’s about to be fired your way?
MM: Well, we’ve been talking to all of the companies for years, right? We’ve been getting ready for this day.
I’m also the chairperson of the Mass Broadcasters Association. So I have another interest involved in this issue as well. It is to try to generate more revenues for all of the broadcasters of Massachusetts so that we can continue to provide the services that we provide to the communities that we broadcast to. To do live and local radio and provide those services is costly. And especially with the pandemic happening, a lot of our member stations just have not rebounded to pre-pandemic levels. So we really do need this! Auto is still down. That is one of the largest sectors for broadcasters. So this would really give us an influx of capital that many of our broadcasters in the state so desperately need.
The House bill is pretty on target. We’re in favor of that bill. The Senate bill does come with some issues. Broadcasters, as well as leagues and teams, do not like that bill the way it is right now, so we are trying to influence some changes in it. It has some advertising bans that are pretty severe.
DR: The Senate bill is the one that says no using a credit card and no betting on college games. I’m just trying to make sure I have the two correct.
MM: No betting on college games, no advertising on anything that’s not 21 plus. And then the other issue is no advertising whistle to whistle or in the 5 minutes pre and postgame.
DR: Wow! Those are some very severe restrictions. So in your role with the Massachusetts Broadcasters Association, how much are you expecting to be at the State House lobbying and making sure that these people understand what the Senate bill could do or could keep from happening for your industry?
MM: The Massachusetts Broadcasters Association has a great lobbyist that’s been on staff for many, many years. We’re really tapping into his expertise and relationships in order to help us through this process.
DR: So in your role leading Beasley in Boston, have you reached out at all to consult Joe Bell down in Philadelphia? I mean, that area was so ready to go that it seemed like the day that sports gambling was legal everywhere outside of Nevada, that stations in and around Philadelphia were ready to take full advantage of the advertising opportunities.
MM: Joe and I haven’t really talked about this issue, but you bring up a good point I should probably tap into him.
DR: Well then I’ll let you go soon so you can make that call. The last time we spoke, one of the things that you were proud of were the COVID protocols that you had developed on the fly. You’ve since had the bulk of your people come back into the building, and I wonder what things have looked like in the building as we’ve gone through spikes and dips in the case numbers. Have people mostly been back or did you have to send everyone out again at some point?
MM My salespeople came back in July of 2020, so we’ve been back in the building the whole time. Some people never left the building.
But, unfortunately, you’re right. I think cases are spiking up again where I’m starting my COVID dashboard report every couple of weeks. I’m adding people to it and I’m taking them out of quarantine and putting them back in the system. In order to keep it all straight, I have to keep a running list.
I go, “Okay, what was your day? Zero. Okay. Oh, your son had it. When was his day zero?” And then I count and then I send them a little email and say, you’re cleared to come back on X day just so that we have it all straight. It keeps the level of panic down in the building because everybody knows that I’m on it. We’re holding people by date so that everyone else stays safe. So they feel pretty confident. The way we have been running things over the past more than two years gives them a level of confidence to be able to come to work, that they know that they’ll be safe here.
DR: It’s like a total 180 from the last time we chatted because it was right before the sales staff was starting to get ready to come back in the building. Now keeping track of this is like a necessary pain in the ass as opposed to a panic. That is a huge step forward! It may not be convenient, but it certainly beats where we were this time last year.
MM: It is, however, for a couple of months I didn’t have to have a list. “Everybody is vaccinated. People are boosted. Nobody has COVID. It’s springtime in New England. There should be a lot less of it because we’re not indoors. This is great! We’re out of it!” And then it’s like, “Oh, there’s four cases this week”. You know what I mean? But at least we all know we’re not going to die – most of us. Knock on wood.
Being Wrong On-Air Isn’t A Bad Thing
…if you feel yourself getting uncomfortable over the fact that you were wrong, stop to realize that’s your pride talking. Your ego. And if people call you out for being wrong, it’s actually a good sign.
In the press conference after the Warriors won their fourth NBA title in eight years, Steph Curry referenced a very specific gesture from a very specific episode of Get Up that aired in August 2021.
“Clearly remember some experts and talking heads putting up the big zero,” Curry said, then holding up a hollowed fist to one eye, looking through it as if it were a telescope.
“How many championships we would have going forward because of everything we went through.”
Yep, Kendrick Perkins and Domonique Foxworth each predicted the Warriors wouldn’t win a single title over the course of the four-year extension Curry had just signed. The Warriors won the NBA title and guess what? Curry gets to gloat.
The funny part to me was the people who felt Perkins or Foxworth should be mad or embarrassed. Why? Because they were wrong?
That’s part of the game. If you’re a host or analyst who is never wrong in a prediction, it’s more likely that you’re excruciatingly boring than exceedingly smart. Being wrong is not necessarily fun, but it’s not a bad thing in this business.
You shouldn’t try to be wrong, but you shouldn’t be afraid of it, either. And if you are wrong, own it. Hold your L as I’ve heard the kids say. Don’t try to minimize it or explain it or try to point out how many other people are wrong, too. Do what Kendrick Perkins did on Get Up the day after the Warriors won the title.
“When they go on to win it, guess what?” He said, sitting next to Mike Greenberg. “You have to eat that.”
Do not do what Perkins did later that morning on First Take.
Perkins: “I come on here and it’s cool, right? Y’all can pull up Perk receipts and things to that nature. And then you give other people a pass like J-Will.”
Jason Williams: “I don’t get passes on this show.”
Perkins: “You had to, you had a receipt, too, because me and you both picked the Memphis Grizzlies to beat the Golden State Warriors, but I’m OK with that. I’m OK with that. Go ahead Stephen A. I know you’re about to have fun and do your thing. Go ahead.”
Stephen A. Smith: “First of all, I’m going to get serious for a second with the both of you, especially you, Perk, and I want to tell you something right now. Let me throw myself on Front Street, we can sit up there and make fun of me. You know how many damn Finals predictions I got wrong? I don’t give a damn. I mean, I got a whole bunch of them wrong. Ain’t no reason to come on the air and defend yourself. Perk, listen man. You were wrong. And we making fun, and Steph Curry making fun of you. You laugh at that my brother. He got you today. That’s all. He got you today.”
It’s absolutely great advice, and if you feel yourself getting uncomfortable over the fact that you were wrong, stop to realize that’s your pride talking. Your ego. And if people call you out for being wrong, it’s actually a good sign. It means they’re not just listening, but holding on to what you say. You matter. Don’t ruin that by getting defensive and testy.
WORTH EVERY PENNY
I did a double-take when I saw Chris Russo’s list of the greatest QB-TE combinations ever on Wednesday and this was before I ever got to Tom Brady-to-Rob Gronkowski listed at No. 5. It was actually No. 4 that stopped me cold: Starr-Kramer.
My first thought: Jerry Kramer didn’t play tight end.
My second thought: I must be unaware of this really good tight end from the Lombardi-era Packers.
After further review, I don’t think that’s necessarily true, either. Ron Kramer did play for the Lombardi-era Packers, and he was a good player. He caught 14 scoring passes in a three-year stretch where he really mattered, but he failed to catch a single touchdown pass in six of the 10 NFL seasons he played. He was named first-team All-Pro once and finished his career with 229 receptions.
Now this is not the only reason that this is an absolutely terrible list. It is the most egregious, however. Bart Starr and Kramer are not among the 25 top QB-TE combinations in NFL history let alone the top five. And if you’re to believe Russo’s list, eighty percent of the top tandems played in the NFL in the 30-year window from 1958 to 1987 with only one tandem from the past 30 years meriting inclusion when this is the era in which tight end production has steadily climbed.
Then I found out that Russo is making $10,000 per appearance on “First Take.”
My first thought: You don’t have to pay that much to get a 60-something white guy to grossly exaggerate how great stuff used to be.
My second thought: That might be the best $10,000 ESPN has ever spent.
Once a week, Russo comes on and draws a reaction out of a younger demographic by playing a good-natured version of Dana Carvey’s Grumpy Old Man. Russo groans to JJ Redick about the lack of fundamental basketball skills in today’s game or he proclaims the majesty of a tight end-quarterback pairing that was among the top five in its decade, but doesn’t sniff the top five of all-time.
And guess what? It works. Redick rolls his eyes, asks Russo which game he’s watching, and on Wednesday he got me to spend a good 25 minutes looking up statistics for some Packers tight end I’d never heard of. Not satisfied with that, I then moved on to determine Russo’s biggest omission from the list, which I’ve concluded is Philip Rivers and Antonio Gates, who connected for 89 touchdowns over 15 seasons, which is only 73 more touchdowns than Kramer scored in his career. John Elway and Shannon Sharpe should be on there, too.
Money Isn’t The Key Reason Why Sellers Sell Sports Radio
I started selling sports radio because I enjoyed working with clients who loved sports, our station, and wanted to reach fans with our commercials and promotions.
A radio salesperson’s value being purely tied to money is overrated to me. Our managers all believe that our main motivation for selling radio is to make more money. They see no problem in asking us to sell more in various ways because it increases our paycheck. We are offered more money to sell digital, NTR, to sell another station in the cluster, weekend remotes, new direct business, or via the phone in 8 hours.
But is that why you sell sports radio?
In 2022, the Top 10 highest paying sales jobs are all in technology. Not a media company among them. You could argue that if it were all about making money, we should quit and work in tech. Famous bank robber Willie Sutton was asked why he robbed twenty banks over twenty years. He reportedly said,” that’s where the money is”. Sutton is the classic example of a person who wanted what money could provide and was willing to do whatever it took to get it, BUT he also admitted he liked robbing banks and felt alive. So, Sutton didn’t do it just for the money.
A salesperson’s relationship with money and prestige is also at the center of the play Death of a Salesman. Willy Loman is an aging and failing salesman who decides he is worth more dead than alive and kills himself in an auto accident giving his family the death benefit from his life insurance policy. Loman wasn’t working for the money. He wanted the prestige of what money could buy for himself and his family.
Recently, I met a woman who spent twelve years selling radio from 1999-2011. I asked her why she left her senior sales job. She said she didn’t like the changes in the industry. Consolidation was at its peak, and most salespeople were asked to do more with less help. She described her radio sales job as one with “golden handcuffs”. The station paid her too much money to quit even though she hated the job. She finally quit. The job wasn’t worth the money to her.
I started selling sports radio because I enjoyed working with clients who loved sports, our station, and wanted to reach fans with our commercials and promotions. I never wanted to sell anything else and specifically enjoyed selling programming centered around reaching fans of Boise State University football. That’s it. Very similar to what Mark Glynn and his KJR staff experience when selling Kraken hockey and Huskies football.
I never thought selling sports radio was the best way to make money. I just enjoyed the way I could make money. I focused on the process and what I enjoyed about the position—the freedom to come and go and set my schedule for the most part. I concentrated on annual contracts and clients who wanted to run radio commercials over the air to get more traffic and build their brand.
Most of my clients were local direct and listened to the station. Some other sales initiatives had steep learning curves, were one-day events or contracted out shaky support staff. In other words, the money didn’t motivate me enough. How I spent my time was more important.
So, if you are in management, maybe consider why your sales staff is working at the station. Because to me, they’d be robbing banks if it were all about making lots of money.
Media Noise: BSM Podcast Network Round Table
Demetri Ravanos welcomes the two newest members of the BSM Podcast Network to the show. Brady Farkas and Stephen Strom join for a roundtable discussion that includes the new media, Sage Steele and Roger Goodell telling Congress that Dave Portnoy isn’t banned from NFL events.